A bad, bad, bad, gun/trade deal

[spider]

If it makes ya feel any better. I've had an ffl. In Salem that promised me a sale, then I went down the next day and he sold the gun to someone out of state cause he could "get more outta them".

 

[ricsha]

Interesting points on either side, but I like to keep things simple.
You have an item; you can sell an item.
You don't have it; you don't try to sell it... Seems pretty simple.
I've done a number of buys and sells on this, and other forums, and this one is by far the best. (Probably because it's mostly local, but I've never had a bad experience.) Not so on some of the others. Just my $.02

 

[Outrider]

Bring item to friend... friend sells item very simple.

Sometimes you're not in the same place or state. For example, if I had a friend who lives in CA, it would not make sense for him to transfer the firearm to me so I can sell it here. It's easier to do the listing and then let him transfer it via FFL to the proper party.

I wouldn't use the word "think" as you are dealing in probabilities, when Oregonjohn is dealing in true facts.

OregonJohn is dealing with an anecdotal experience (i.e. a sample size of one) and trying to make universal policy based on that single experience because he thinks/assumes enough of the others will be the same poor deal. We're both dealing in probabilities.

I disagree an FFL is in the business and often times find deals that are then advertised and ordered in for the customer, something a non dealer can't do.

Sticking to the case at hand, in this instance having or not a license made no difference. He didn't have the rifle and apparently had a cousin who could not or would not complete the deal. While a FFL could order a brand new replacement rifle to make up for a new rifle that was advertised but not on hand, that's not the situation we are dealing with here. Whether or not the owner had fired a shot through it, this would be considered a used rifle and the dealer has no idea when he get a similar condition used rifle for a good wholesale price to offer as a replacement.

Yes and no, yes the customer would be in the same position but no the results would be different, an FFL has his name permanently connected to every transaction he makes and lives or dies by his reputation, a guy selling a couple guns just isn't under that kind of pressure.

I guess a guy selling a couple of guns once in a blue moon isn't under that kind of pressure but we all know lousy shops that have been in business for years despite the consistent terrible word of mouth. I won't blast any particular gun shop, but if we went into the reviews for a couple of shops in Oregon, you would find a couple that consistently get bad reviews yet they are still open and making money.

Dedicated shooters who spend time online in firearms forums is only a slice of the shooting community. Having worked on the other side of the table at gun shows for dealer friends, I can tell you many people who buy guns have no idea what shop is a good shop or often what good service is. I have seen many buyers just spend money at the first place that had what they wanted. Only later do they learn that they overpaid and by then it's too late.

I have spoken with dealers at some shops who basically prey on the customers who have not done their homework. Their basic line was there were far more people who will be low hanging fruit (unaware of the market) than those who had a pulse on things. These dealers were willing to stick it to every customer they could because they were not banking on repeat business. -To a dedicated shooting enthusiast who owns at least several firearms this is unthinkable. However, a good number of people who are gun owners own a single firearm, never practice with it or maintain it. When they come in to buy a pistol, a box of ammo, and maybe a holster, it's a one time expense for them.

This discussion/proposal really only has the effect of taking away the excuse (after the fact) that they don't have access to the item they advertised, not the practice of advertising for a friend as we won't be knocking on doors verifying that you have the item.

I agree. Not having the item is not an excuse. If you are using the goodwill you have earned to sell the item, then you not being able to come through in a reasonable period of time is on you as the person who listed the item. -Keeping that in mind makes me very choosy as to who I would vouch for because if I vouch for someone who is a flake, I could become associated with that kind of conduct and I do not want that.

 

[Trlsmn]

Sometimes you're not in the same place or state. For example, if I had a friend who lives in CA, it would not make sense for him to transfer the firearm to me so I can sell it here. It's easier to do the listing and then let him transfer it via FFL to the proper party.

We aren't really speaking of NWFA in your example though, and that is all that really matters for purposes of this discussion

OregonJohn is dealing with an anecdotal experience (i.e. a sample size of one) and trying to make universal policy based on that single experience because he thinks/assumes enough of the others will be the same poor deal. We're both dealing in probabilities.

Sticking to the case at hand, in this instance having or not a license made no difference. He didn't have the rifle and apparently had a cousin who could not or would not complete the deal. While a FFL could order a brand new replacement rifle to make up for a new rifle that was advertised but not on hand, that's not the situation we are dealing with here. Whether or not the owner had fired a shot through it, this would be considered a used rifle and the dealer has no idea when he get a similar condition used rifle for a good wholesale price to offer as a replacement.

Do you see the conflict in the above two quotes? In the first quote you want to generalize and in the second you want it to be specific. :huh:

I guess a guy selling a couple of guns once in a blue moon isn't under that kind of pressure but we all know lousy shops that have been in business for years despite the consistent terrible word of mouth.

The reality of the situation is that this discussion doesn't really affect them so I must ask to stick to the topic of what we can do her to improve the situation

I won't blast any particular gun shop, but if we went into the reviews for a couple of shops in Oregon, you would find a couple that consistently get bad reviews yet they are still open and making money.

Dedicated shooters who spend time online in firearms forums is only a slice of the shooting community. Having worked on the other side of the table at gun shows for dealer friends, I can tell you many people who buy guns have no idea what shop is a good shop or often what good service is. I have seen many buyers just spend money at the first place that had what they wanted. Only later do they learn that they overpaid and by then it's too late.

I have spoken with dealers at some shops who basically prey on the customers who have not done their homework. Their basic line was there were far more people who will be low hanging fruit (unaware of the market) than those who had a pulse on things. These dealers were willing to stick it to every customer they could because they were not banking on repeat business. -To a dedicated shooting enthusiast who owns at least several firearms this is unthinkable. However, a good number of people who are gun owners own a single firearm, never practice with it or maintain it. When they come in to buy a pistol, a box of ammo, and maybe a holster, it's a one time expense for them.

We actually have a forum dedicated to local firearms business and we encourage poeple to express their opinions positive or negative.

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=33

I agree. Not having the item is not an excuse. If you are using the goodwill you have earned to sell the item, then you not being able to come through in a reasonable period of time is on you as the person who listed the item. -Keeping that in mind makes me very choosy as to who I would vouch for because if I vouch for someone who is a flake, I could become associated with that kind of conduct and I do not want that.

One thing I would like to see more of is people using the iTrade system even when the transaction went bad, I get a PM at least once a week from a member telling me about a bad trade and that they are afraid to leave negative feedback for fear of retaliatory negative feedback.

 

[Outrider]

Do you see the conflict in the above two quotes? In the first quote you want to generalize and in the second you want it to be specific. :huh:

We are talking about generalities but that does not mean generalities without bounds or context. The bounds and context are about selling a used firearm. Once you remove that limitation, there's no point in discussing the matter.

A FFL can advertise new items he does not have because he can always get new replacement items. Advertising for a used item that is not possessed is trickier because while there are certainly used items of the same type, kind, and condition available across the nation, finding one as a replacement may be a difficult task. -You must be able to see how that is different from someone having one bad transaction and generalizing that others will be similar.

We actually have a forum dedicated to local firearms business and we encourage poeple to express their opinions positive or negative.

I know, that's why I specifically mentioned that section of the forum.

One thing I would like to see more of is people using the iTrade system even when the transaction went bad, I get a PM at least once a week from a member telling me about a bad trade and that they are afraid to leave negative feedback for fear of retaliatory negative feedback.

The feedback system is premised on the honor system. Some people are more honorable than others. It's just the way it is. The reality is that if you give someone a negative, they can retaliate. You can also have a person who is lazy about giving good feedback even when it's earned so some people should have higher positives. You could have several individuals list false feedback if they wanted to increase their rating by listing bogus items for sale and trading positives. Any system you set up can be gamed and abused.

The limiting factor for success is the people who are involved in the activities. People who do not report good, bad, or whatever undermine the system. Perhaps making feedback mandatory could work better where once a deal is agreed upon a button is hit and both parties are bound to state their respective versions of the outcome.

If you want things to change, you and the other moderators are going to have to wade into a lot of petty arguments i.e. I bought X firearm and it was supposed to be in 85% condition but I think it's 80%, I bought X firearm and the owner said he had not had FTE or FTF but when I took it to the range I had a jam therefore he should refund my money, etc...

I've watched this play out on AR15.com and what happens is the moderators contact the person who received the negative to get their side of the story. The person who got the negative doesn't get to give the other person a negative as an immediate retaliatory measure. If the mess is ignored or not resolved in a satisfactory manner, the negative stands and the offending person's access to the trade forum may be suspended. Sometimes the entire account is banned. It's just a matter of how much time and effort you want to invest in it.

 

[yotehunter]

one good thing is they didn't retaliate with negative feedback.

 

[M.Link]

I am the one who listed the Kimber if you guys havnt figured it out yet. This was my second time posting for somebody else. About 3days prior to listing the Kimber, I sold a AR for the same cousin, on here and it went perfect. I had and still am having a lot of personal problems and like I told John, my personal life comes before the internet. I was trying to get ahold of my cousin, he wouldn't answer his phone. I even had my dad and brother (Joey Link) try to call him. I live 80 or so miles from my cousin, we work kinda close to eachother so I was planning on picking it up there. I will NOT try to sell a gun for him again, and I learned. I agree John was putting in a lot of effort, and I put in as much as I could. Sorry it wasn't enough. I thought it would go smooth like the other deal I did for him. So, you guys can think what you want, but I had other things that came up that were very important. About replying to PMs and calls, I go on here with my Blackberry, and I was not around it, or able to get on here, nor was it the first thing on my list. I don't care what the deal is, but I won't give out anybodys number without there permission. So, sorry John, I have learned from this. That is all I can say.

 

[adipose]

I agree with OregonJohn; Don't post an item for sale you don't intend to stay on top of it or don't know its wereabouts so well, you can't get to it in a timely manner.

If you're too busy to not even cater to answering e-mail's/phone messages 15 minutes a day; then wait to sell your item at a later more convenient date.

I have been in the same senerio a few times and it can be very frustating.

It is called simple respect towards each other on this good website.

 

[gunnails]

I agree with OregonJohn; Don't post an item for sale you don't intend to stay on top of it or don't know its wereabouts so well, you can't get to it in a timely manner.

If you're too busy to not even cater to answering e-mail's/phone messages 15 minutes a day; then wait to sell your item at a later more convenient date.

I have been in the same senerio a few times and it can be very frustating.

It is called simple respect towards each other on this good website.

=================================================

Did you use to post under a diferent name here?

 

[adipose]

I agree with OregonJohn; Don't post an item for sale you don't intend to stay on top of it or don't know its wereabouts so well, you can't get to it in a timely manner.

If you're too busy to not even cater to answering e-mail's/phone messages 15 minutes a day; then wait to sell your item at a later more convenient date.

I have been in the same senerio a few times and it can be very frustating.

It is called simple respect towards each other on this good website.

 

[glorydays4ever]

I for one would like to see this as a NWFA rule for non FFL's.

My reasoning is for simplicity, a gun/item that is not in the possession of the seller makes the transaction that much more difficult to complete as the above post proves. This is the standard rule at many gun forums.

+1 on that.
A guy posted a Sig P245 for his friend on here a while back and I replied "I'll take it" minutes later. I went through a few delayed BS PM's guess what happened........ Nothing!

 

[dezertdog]

It's the internet, people are flakes, gotta get used to it. If you see it happen, do what you can to leave some sort of public feedback (trade ratings I guess is what it's called here?).

My point I guess is that I list stuff for sale for friends w/o said merchandise in hand all the time and it works out great for all involved. I'll continue to do so, not going to stop because two people I don't know did something I don't have control over.

 

[glorydays4ever]

Leaving negative feedback can be tricky. If you leave negative for them, obviously their integrity is in question, they will leave negative feedback for you. So then what.........??... I don't think anyone wants that.

 

[OregonJohn]

Since MLINK has stepped forward and made the statement that time was the factor in this deal and nothing else, I offer to keep my word and buy the gun at the agreed price of 650.00. I offer to give MLINK a fair amount of time to get the Kimber and complete the sale with me. I am sure that his cousin would agree that this is the only fair end to this deal. If MLINK is willing to complete the sale, I will plead with the moderators to have the negative trade rating removed as a lesson learned to all.

John

 

[dave]

It's the internet, people are flakes, gotta get used to it. If you see it happen, do what you can to leave some sort of public feedback (trade ratings I guess is what it's called here?).

My point I guess is that I list stuff for sale for friends w/o said merchandise in hand all the time and it works out great for all involved. I'll continue to do so, not going to stop because two people I don't know did something I don't have control over.

Good to know. I will add you to my list!!!

 

[M.Link]

I will try to get it put together still. I can't promise when I can get ahold of my cousin. He could have changed his mind and is avoiding me because of that, I don't know. I will try calling him a few times a day. I can not drive around on a wild goose chase trying to figure out where he is. Like I said we live like 80 miles apart and I do not get off work in time to run all the way to the other side of Portland, during rush hour, before he is "schedualled" to leave his "work" (he makes his own hours). If I can pin him down to a time I will go get the gun after work at his house, but I'm not driving all the way out there for him to be not home. I will keep calling him though.

 

[Mutoman]

I think this should be labeled as a fluke rather than a flake; two respectable members of this forum experienced some situational problems that shouldn't be identified with one of them trying to flake out on the other. However, it surely is a good idea to have "weapon in hand" before you try to sell it. Too bad your cousin (the actual flake here) didn't produce in a timely manner Mr. Link.

 

[Scott]

I don't think having the weapon in hand is all that important but I feel communication is the crucial part. It takes all of 30 seconds to call or text or pm and say can't do it sorry. Not letting the other party know what is going on is the wrong way to go about it.

 

[Joe Link]

I don't think having the weapon in hand is all that important but I feel communication is the crucial part. It takes all of 30 seconds to call or text or pm and say can't do it sorry. Not letting the other party know what is going on is the wrong way to go about it.

This is how I feel about it.

 

[Nightshade]

I'm happy it might get resolved..