Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

A bad, bad, bad, gun/trade deal

Discussion in 'Questions, Problems, & Feedback' started by OregonJohn, Mar 14, 2010.

  1. OregonJohn

    OregonJohn Sutherlin, Or Bronze Life Member #1 Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    70
    I saw a 270 WSM Kimber listed in the rifle section last Sunday for sale. Not having a surplus of money right now, I offered a trade. Seller PMed right back, said that it belonged to his cousin and would not take a trade but would take 100.00 less. I had a buddy who would be happy to give me the asking price of the Kimber for my trade. I called him and said IF I could buy the Kimber, I would sell him my gun. All was well. My buddy said that he would even make the deal on the Kimber for me because he works just South of Portland, and I am South three hours.

    I called seller and deal was made to bring the gun down to Albany that day. He said he would need to call his cousin and bring it down. An hour later I get a call that they could not come down, but they would make the deal with my buddy at 4:45PM on tue. Monday seller would not return PMs or phone calls. Tuesday sent me a text message that they were not going to make the deal, but the gun was mine and we would work out another time. I sent him a PM that we could try the deal at the same time on thurs or I would pay for the gas for them to meet me in Eugene on sat. Seller called and said that would be fine and would let me know. Weds would not return PMs or calls about deal on thurs. At 5:30pm seller calls me and says that he still does not have the gun, but would get it after work and call me fri at 6:00pm for deal in Eugene on sat. Fri night, seller would not return PMs or calls. Tired of the whole deal and with lack of communication with the seller, I left the seller a negative trade rating sat morning. Shortly after he was quick on the PMs to tell me what he thought of me. He said it was not his fault because he was too busy to PM, call, or get the gun from his cousin. He said that he was not worried about the negative trade rating, because poeple know he is a great guy.

    So, the one thing I have learned from this whole thing is that I don't think a non-FFL member should ever list a gun or item for sale, that the member does not have in their possession at time of listing. I feel that if the seller had the gun in his hands, this may not have gone this way. I also think that if a seller does not have the time to keep in communication while making a deal, he should not list the item. I do feel that I did everything that I could to make this deal work. The seller missed (4) trade meetings.

    I propose that member do not list any items for sale/trade that they do have in their possession.

    Any feedback would be great.

    Thanks, John
     
  2. .45's and .38's

    .45's and .38's Happy Valley OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,896
    Likes Received:
    88
    Sorry about your bad deal. :( I also agree with what you are saying. I hate when people post things like
    "I will have to pick the gun up, I live here, but am here right now"
    or
    "I am posting this for a friend or a brother of mine"

    I will never buy a gun, if the person is selling it for their friends brother...etc
     
  3. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    I for one would like to see this as a NWFA rule for non FFL's.

    My reasoning is for simplicity, a gun/item that is not in the possession of the seller makes the transaction that much more difficult to complete as the above post proves. This is the standard rule at many gun forums.
     
  4. Nightshade

    Nightshade vancouver,WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    855
    I agree had a deal made a while back. then guy tell he has to get it out of pawn shop and needed money first. Needless to say I passed..
     
  5. OregonJohn

    OregonJohn Sutherlin, Or Bronze Life Member #1 Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    70
    A hard lesson learned. I wanted the Kimber badly. After the first meeting was missed, I asked seller for the number of the cousin so I could deal direct. He told me this was not a option. All the seller had to do was give me the contact information of the true seller of the Kimber. I would have called the true seller of the gun and found out for myself, if the gun was for sale or not. He could have even called me. Then I would have no longer felt the member was, in any way responsible for the deal. There was never a picture of the gun posted. The gun has not been relisted as of yet. Makes me wonder if there ever was a Kimber for sale. I think that seven days is more that enough time to make any deal. And what about the (4) missed appointments to make the deal. There are 24 hours in a day. How much time does it take to send a PM.

    John
     
  6. krazed

    krazed Yamhill Member

    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    2
    You guys are over-reacting! OP new the issues going in. ie. the seller was doing this for someone else. You are not dealing with a dealer or private party with time on his hands. You are dealing with someone who is busy and is trying to help out two parties. He got stuck in the middle because he was too helpful. The only problem I see is the OP has learned not to do any more favors.
    Your proposal sounds like our current gov. We need another rule (law) to fix a minor problem that could be resolved with a little more communication and patience on the part of the parties involved. Could not be enforced anyway.:)
     
  7. MarkSBG

    MarkSBG Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,467
    Likes Received:
    31
    I disagree. OregonJohn has a good point. He acted in good faith and was willing AND able to hold up his side of the agreement. The seller was NOT. If he was too busy to comlete the transaction, he should have never put the ad up. If you put an ad up, you are responsible to act in a reasonably timely manor to close any deals that you have agreed to.
     
  8. OregonJohn

    OregonJohn Sutherlin, Or Bronze Life Member #1 Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    70
    Krazed, go back and read my posts. There is 100% no way the seller can defend his actions in any way. From not having the gun, not going to get the gun, not making the meetings, not returning PMs and calls.

    This is about starting a new standard of not posting without possession.

    Personal responsibility, honor, trust, honesty, self pride, would be the best form of enforcement. All you have in this world is your word. I think this is a lesson learned over time.

    MarkSBG, thanks for the backup.

    John
     
  9. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

    Messages:
    1,119
    Likes Received:
    11
    Yep... binding contracts are often created in the course of these deals. It would be a big waste of time (and a pigheaded move) to take anybody to small claims court over an online handshake deal, but bad trade ratings are definitely warranted when a seller or buyer is unable to complete a transaction as promised.
     
  10. Nightshade

    Nightshade vancouver,WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,007
    Likes Received:
    855
    +1 For oregon john you make a deal you abide by it,.sad part to this story is the person in question has alot of positive transactions. and 1 bad one makes other members do a double take as to weather to do biz with this fella.

    just my 2 cents
     
  11. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    4,908
    Likes Received:
    5,856
    I have been on both sides of this argument.

    1. Agree completely with: "If you are selling something it shall be in your possession" regardless if your selling it for a friend.

    2. I recently sold a RCBS reloading kit for a relative. It was in my possession the whole time. It was at my house before I posted a "Sale" ad.

    3. When I sell something for somebody either on here, craigslist, or outdoorstrader.com I give the owner a price I believe I can get. We go from there. I've collected selling comissions out of the owners generosity.


    OregonJohn has valid points. If your not going to take the lead and sell an item DONT POST IT. PERIOD.
     
  12. krazed

    krazed Yamhill Member

    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    2
    Okay, here's my followup. Was out on the tractor all afternoon and just got in. First chance to post :D
    John, I reread the first post and saw how many gyrations you and the seller went through to try and make this happen. My first thought when I read it was "Man this guy really wants that gun". I would have given up when a two party deal became three and then four. Just too many people involved. Then it got more complicated with the second and third cancellations. I sympathize with you in that you did everything in your power and more to make this happen. The biggest red flag for me would have been when the cousin did not want to talk to you and deal directly. For me that is the time for a direct question of the seller. "Do you guys really want to sell this????" You are more persistent than I would have been. That's the main reason that I was calling this an over-reaction. You wanted it to happen more than the seller and definitely more than the cousin in spite of several red flags.

    Okay, I'm done. Where is that dead horse icon anyway? :)
     
  13. theduke

    theduke NW Member

    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    8


    :deadhorse::gun16:
     
  14. OregonJohn

    OregonJohn Sutherlin, Or Bronze Life Member #1 Lifetime Supporter

    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    70
    I should have never had to give up. Deal should have been made. Word should have been kept. Positive trade ratings exchanged. No horses need be harmed.

    John
     
  15. jrlj

    jrlj Bend, Or. Member

    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    22
    Went through a similar flake acouple months ago, guy even called, had to have it, wanted another one I had that was spoken for, first time he couldn't meet was a big red flag, couldn't meet till Sunday, a week after talking, even though was going to be in his neighborhood sooner. Your word is your word. Can't sell what you don't have
     
  16. spider

    spider Hillsboro Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    66
    Don't sell something for someone unless that item is easy obtainable, bottom line.
     
  17. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,651
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    OregonJohn. You are of course correct, you acted in good faith and were burned. He should have had the item in his possession in order to sell it. It is not necessarily the case here, but please remember something people. Life happens. There are circumstances that may come up after we post a gun for sale that will cause timing issues. Especially when the buyer and seller are hours apart, something I deal with often being over in Bend dealing with people in the valley. As long as the communication continues (unlike what happened to OregonJohn), be patient. If I have to find time to drive a gun over to the valley, that takes not only time to make the drive, but also plan the trip. That may take several days. I really would help if more of you ditch rats would come over to the dry side more often. ;)

    I'm sorry this deal went south, and it seems reasonable that you left negative feedback, although I think you may have jumped the gun a bit early. However, it all comes down to the buyer should have had the gun in his possession. How do you accurately describe a gun you don't have in front of you?
     
  18. Outrider

    Outrider Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    153
    I disagree. There are many people who are shooters but who have no involvement with gun forums. When they decide they want to sell things, they have no forum standing (no track record) to help make the sale. They may not even know what forums would be a good place to sell it. When a friend or family member steps in to help facilitate the sale by listing the item, that individual is using his goodwill that he has earned on behalf of his friend or family member.

    While adding more people to a transaction makes it more difficult (due to coordinating different schedules and communication issues), it does not make it an automatic nonstarter as OregonJohn seems to think. I have listed items for friends on GB and in forums and, except for one transaction, it has worked out every time. The one time I had a problem it was with a buyer who never could get his act together. He was lousy with returning email and phone calls. He claimed he had a FFL dealer lined up to receive a rifle and both dealers he selected wouldn't do transfers with anyone (licensed or not). He claimed he had called to verify that they would do transfers but he had not. In the end, my friend got tired of the would-be buyer not making the effort to complete the deal and he just told him forget it.

    The FFL vs. non-FFL member is a distinction without a difference in this case. The seller was unable to complete his side of the transaction in a timely fashion. It did not matter that he was not a FFL dealer. If he had been a FFL dealer in the same boat (rifle not in hand), the same result would have followed. The difference would have been that there would have been a physical place of business that the rifle had never made it to. -There are plenty of businesses that do not return calls promptly and require multiple reminders. No one should fool themselves that poor follow through is limited to private individuals.

    If someone wants to leave negative feedback for a blown deal, they get to do that. I think it was not necessary in this case but, then again it wasn't my time wasted. However, deciding to prohibit people from posting items for a friend or family member due to this is overkill. There are plenty of times it works out fine but of course, no one starts a thread to explain how they just completed a smooth transaction where all sides did what they were supposed to do.
     
  19. Grubstake

    Grubstake Eugene Oregon Member

    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree with Oregon John, your word has to account for something, If you make a verbal agreement, you must follow through with it. If something comes up and changes the agreement particulars, Then it is your responsibility to contact the other party and make other arrangements.

    True, adding this to the rules may be hard to enforce, but It just may make the difference in your first communication with the person. As far as I'm concerned a mans word is gospel. I (100%) agree with Oregon John.
     
  20. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,838
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    Bring item to friend... friend sells item very simple.

    I wouldn't use the word "think" as you are dealing in probabilities, when Oregonjohn is dealing in true facts.


    I commend you on being one of the good guys that doesn't flake on a deal and likely doesn't stall and make excuses. If everyone was like you there wouldn't be a problem and we wouldn't need to have this discussion about the problem.

    I disagree an FFL is in the business and often times find deals that are then advertised and ordered in for the customer, something a non dealer can't do.

    Yes and no, yes the customer would be in the same position but no the results would be different, an FFL has his name permanently connected to every transaction he makes and lives or dies by his reputation, a guy selling a couple guns just isn't under that kind of pressure.



    This I agree with and would add that a business that is slow before the sale will likely be non existent after the sale, so look elsewhere.

    What we must consider is that there is much that is not known about this deal and I've asked Oregonjohn to keep this vague and about discussing improving the forum for the better and not about calling out the offender and punishing him, Oregonjohn has complied with this.


    This discussion/proposal really only has the effect of taking away the excuse (after the fact) that they don't have access to the item they advertised, not the practice of advertising for a friend as we won't be knocking on doors verifying that you have the item. ;)

    If people would be responsible for their own actions we wouldn't be having this discussion.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.