9mm for small game?

[Yarome]

Not true at all.

If you read back, my comment of making clean through and through shots with large calibers and "meat loss" was in response to the previous post (which I quoted) discussing just that.... not head shots.

Although, I would argue that even with head shots with large calibers that the hydrostatic shock and bone fragmentation would be considerably greater than with a .22 or similiar. Lighter loads or not... "X" FPE is still "X" FPE. That's just physics.

 

[Blowgunner]

If you read back, my comment of making clean through and through shots with large calibers and "meat loss" was in response to the previous post (which I quoted) discussing just that.... not head shots.

Although, I would argue that even with head shots with large calibers that the hydrostatic shock and bone fragmentation would be considerably greater than with a .22 or similiar. Lighter loads or not... "X" FPE is still "X" FPE. That's just physics.

True, but there is nowhere near the damage you describe.

"Thehydrostatic shock of a large projectile like that alone creates a great deal of bloodshot meat andruptures internal organs... often including the stomach and intestinal tract (aka. the poop shoot)... not to mention all the little bones that have been fragmented and turned into explosive projectiles. Organs may still "appear" to be largely intact but have been perforated so bile and such is often released into the meat."

I've never seen such a mess as you describe when shooting proper loads out of large bore guns.
It's no different than shooting them with .36 and .45 call Flintlock and percussion rifles, which put a lot of small game in the pot, long before the .22lr was even a thought.

 

[MrMillspecer]

This is why you wanna use Underwood 115's going an honest 1500+/550fpe from a standard pistol barrel. lol

Some of your favorites favor the wheelgun guys and could loose steam fast past 50 yards or so. I agree when handgun hunting, for larger game with a thick hide, a semi wad cutter is a top choice. I'm a semi auto user mostly and i use flat nose bullets with caution, or for jam clearing exercises . You could load them single, I suppose , for hunting with a carbine or pistol.

 

[DeanMk]

This is why you wanna use Underwood 115's going an honest 1500+/550fpe from a standard pistol barrel. lol

Yeah, but 115 gr. doesn't have as much mass as, say, 147 gr. bullet.
It will break up easier and not be as effective as the heavier bullet.

Dean

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yeah, but 115 gr. doesn't have as much mass as, say, 147 gr. bullet.
It will break up easier and not be as effective as the heavier bullet.

Dean

Yea, I understand. The thread here is about small game.
The old .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP out of 4" barrels was/(is?) considered the ultimate stopper.. on pretty large "game".. and those most definitely broke apart and didn't penetrate "deeply".
so there's that
and to add/edit,
Coppers don't even use 147's any more for the most part, don't even know if they ever really did. They don't expand too well. And then refer back to the .357 finding, that's going about as fast (out of a 4" duty gun) as a hot 9mm.

 

[DeanMk]

[email protected] 44-40 wasn't as popular here in the west as a hunting rifle as in close cover areas of the east. The Army didn't even consider it powerful enough for combat preferring 50-70 and 45-70 before adopting the 30-40 Kraig and on to the 06. The 30-30 was so popular that it is still one of the most used calibers. I know that cowboys (or gun salesmen) liked the interchangeability of ammo between the pistol and rifle available with the 44-40 but they were not really hunters and most uses they had were close range. Many hunters stayed with black powder muzzle loaders (Andy) long after the common advent of metallic because there guns were so much more powerful than the pistol combination calibers. It wasn't long ago there was no one making 44-40 ammo because there was no market. 45-70 and other more proprietary cartridges (45-90-110 and similar) were very popular hunting calibers for there power and range that is similar to many modern loading. Up close, a 44-40 is fine (and all self defense is close too) although Hollywood has given us a wrong impression about how many people commonly carried guns (everyone had a shotgun) in the west and how many actual shootouts there were. Guns were expensive.....and a big quality gun like a 1873 Colt was really expensive when there wasn't much cash around. That is why so many revolvers were modified to use metallic cartridges even into the 1890's. The civil war production of quality revolvers capable of shooting black powder metallic cartridges flooded the post war market and encouraged enterprising smiths to develop modifications to upgrade to newer technology........just like today.

...hmm...I find your post slightly disturbing.
Your opening statement makes it sound as if you were there at that time, yet the last person that was even born in the 19th century, much less remembered it, died last year at well over 100 years old.
So you're either an, as yet undocumented, miracle of the human anatomy, or you're trying to create a discussion just for the purpose of creating a discussion (for the record, I certainly hope that's not what you're doing. I'm just not into that).
Then you go on about the .44-40's lack of acceptance into the US military in the 19th century.
The truth is, it never was considered.
The military went straight from the .44 S&W to the .45 Colt (actually, it settled on a .45 caliber version of the S&W round, aka the "Schofield" round, and officially, M1877 ball ammo).
The .30-30 gained popularity because it was one of the first really popular smokeless rounds. It was actually considered a high speed, flat shooting, long range cartridge shortly after its arrival.
As we all know, the reality is that a .30-30's effective range max's out at around 150, maybe even 200 yards (and let's be clear, we're talking about a pair of young eyes in excellent shape, peeping through those buckhorns. Lord knows I couldn't make that shot these days)....so what would be the comparison rifle/cartridge combo that would make a .30-30 / model 94 look like a long range shooter?
A '73 (or a '92!) chambered in (most likely, since it became the single most populous round available in a revolver by the end of the 19th century) .44-40.


Dean

 

[DeanMk]

Yea, I understand. The thread here is about small game.
The old .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP out of 4" barrels was/(is?) considered the ultimate stopper.. on pretty large "game".. and those most definitely broke apart and didn't penetrate "deeply".
so there's that
and to add/edit,
Coppers don't even use 147's any more for the most part, don't even know if they ever really did. They don't expand too well. And then refer back to the .357 finding, that's going about as fast (out of a 4" duty gun) as a hot 9mm.

...really? 147's don't expand well?...



Looks like it expanded just fine....the conversation has expanded past just small game a while ago.


Dean

 

[Certaindeaf]

...really? 147's don't expand well?...

View attachment 449122

Looks like it expanded just fine....the conversation has expanded past just small game a while ago.


Dean

Is that why all the coppers use 'em? lol, nope

 

[OldTengu]

I can get behind that. From reckless rifle hunters, to archers throwing hail mary shots. Stupid people need to stay out of the woods.

Agreed.
When I was a kid, I spined a blacktail and paralyzed it. Trying to show off for grandad. When we got to it, he made me cut its throat as opposed to finishing it with a head shot,while deriding my intelligence. While not the most pleasant memory, I have since been much more careful with shot placement. Thats whats known as "good parenting"

 

[Felten]

Yea, I understand. The thread here is about small game.
The old .357 Magnum 125gr SJHP out of 4" barrels was/(is?) considered the ultimate stopper.. on pretty large "game".. and those most definitely broke apart and didn't penetrate "deeply".
so there's that
and to add/edit,
Coppers don't even use 147's any more for the most part, don't even know if they ever really did. They don't expand too well. And then refer back to the .357 finding, that's going about as fast (out of a 4" duty gun) as a hot 9mm.

When I worked closely with law enforcement in the Roseburg, Oregon area, back in the early 2000's, the guys who carried a 9mm handgun were issued 147gr Black Talons. That said, at that time 9mm was considered an anemic caliber by many in LE. Most officers carried .40 S&W handguns from what I remember. It's funny too see many on YouTube and other places nowadays all but calling the .40 S&W an anemic caliber and the 9mm superior. Didn't someone once say fashion is a circle?

 

[DeanMk]

Is that why all the coppers use 'em? lol, nope

Guess you don't consider the FBI as part of "the coppers".....FBI Going Back to 9mm Ammunition

 

[Certaindeaf]

Guess you don't consider the FBI as part of "the coppers".....FBI Going Back to 9mm Ammunition

I said 147's, not 9mm and I was being facetious

 

[DeanMk]

No, you fanboy'd Underwood 115 gr., then went on to state that "Coppers don't even use 147's any more for the most part, don't even know if they ever really did.
...oh, and look here! - Top 5 9mm Self Defense Rounds Used by Law Enforcement
Gee, I don't see any "Underwood" ammo anywhere in that list, nor do I see any 115 gr. bullets listed, but I do see a 147gr. loading for every one of those loads!

...but the coppers don't use 'em. Riiiiiight.

 

[Blowgunner]

But...............


..... do the coppers hunt small game with 147gr loads? I didn't see anything online staying they dont, so they must!

 

[DeanMk]

I said 147's.

...too late on your revision.

 

[upstate88]

Great input, I appreciate everyone's input. It sounds like a 16" barrel and quality ammo will work out great. Now that I have a reloading buddy I think I can tailor some rounds for little critters as well as find some good defense rounds that will net some great energy.

I have been shooting the critical defense and duty rounds for a few years now and while I have not shot anything with meat...