6.5 PRC fail on elk.

[Koda]

He doesnt need a bigger caliber he needs to learn to shoot the one he has. A poor shot with a bigger caliber isnt going to be any different.

 

[pharmseller]

And to the OP, going from 1800 ft/lbs to 2700 ft/lbs to me is a meaningless exercise. If 1800 isn't going to do it, 2700 won't either. Buy a more reliable rifle because follow ups happen, and practice. I keep shooting if they're still standing, regardless of where the first bullet went, so I demand a rifle that functions (Tikka all day every day for me). Modern rifles shouldn't jam.

I don't look at ft/lbs, ever ever ever. I only pay attention to velocity. If the velocity at impact is inside the bullet's performance window, I'm good.

I shoot a lot. I had elk steak for dinner last night, too.



P

 

[belshawelk]

And to the OP, going from 1800 ft/lbs to 2700 ft/lbs to me is a meaningless exercise. If 1800 isn't going to do it, 2700 won't either. Buy a more reliable rifle because follow ups happen, and practice. I keep shooting if they're still standing, regardless of where the first bullet went, so I demand a rifle that functions (Tikka all day every day for me). Modern rifles shouldn't jam.

I don't look at ft/lbs, ever ever ever. I only pay attention to velocity. If the velocity at impact is inside the bullet's performance window, I'm good.

I shoot a lot. I had elk steak for dinner last night, too.



P

Then lets shoot a 220 swift or 22-250 for elk. Velocity is only portion of what kills animals. If you don't hit a vital then you terminal shock or to be able to break an animal down. Remember when the FBI switched from the 9mm to the 10mm Why? The 9 doesn't not carry enough energy to put the body in shock on a marginal shot. The 10mm does a much better shot on marginal shot placement.

I am sure you shoot a lot of bears, maybe even big ones. But the number one rule on a big brown bear or grizzly is to break them down. If you can break both shoulders and anchor them you are in really good shape. Velocity is only the delivery mechanism. Its pure energy . That's why most big bear hunters use a .375. It has a big heavy bullet ( NOT moving very fast actually) but delivers a ton of energy.

Obviously there are two camps, velocity vs. energy. Too me its both but I will take energy every time. I would rather get hit with a motorcycle at 40 mph than a F350 at 30mph.

 

[bbbass]

Hmmmm, we see these discussions over and over again. My $0.02 is that schit happens. I'm not sure what is the "best" way to go, I've heard the small going fast routine, but think you gotta put it in the vitals for that. A miss that hits bone "might" not do it.

And elk not tough??? I've seen them go a long way after being heart or lung shot... the pros explain it as oxygen rich hemoglobin. IDK. I've always needed two shots to put one down.

I know MY abilities... when I still hunted I had a rule for myself not to take shots over 200yds. I knew that was both the limit of my skill at my current age, and within the performance of the .308 I used, aiming for the vitals.

But when I first started hunting elk, it was thought that 7mm Rem Mag was the perfect combo of enough bullet going fast and flat shooting (I handloaded Nosler partition bullets). But now that is thought to be too light for elk. Hmmmm. My friends used 300WinMag or .338WM, the 300 guy was a fan of breaking the shoulder bone with 220gr bullets. The .338 was used primarily for neck, or spine shots (beyond my capability, I witnessed a doe shot in the throat and suffering when my Idaho buddy's granny was trying for the neck bone with a 25-20) and put them down dead right there. None at long range tho. Another friend, and now his son, used a Rem 742 in 30-06 and they get their elk every year at reasonable ranges. We called him Elk Killer, and now his son.

Not a fan of long range shots with any caliber!!!

 

[pharmseller]

Then lets shoot a 220 swift or 22-250 for elk. Velocity is only portion of what kills animals. If you don't hit a vital then you terminal shock or to be able to break an animal down. Remember when the FBI switched from the 9mm to the 10mm Why? The 9 doesn't not carry enough energy to put the body in shock on a marginal shot. The 10mm does a much better shot on marginal shot placement.

I am sure you shoot a lot of bears, maybe even big ones. But the number one rule on a big brown bear or grizzly is to break them down. If you can break both shoulders and anchor them you are in really good shape. Velocity is only the delivery mechanism. Its pure energy . That's why most big bear hunters use a .375. It has a big heavy bullet ( NOT moving very fast actually) but delivers a ton of energy.

Obviously there are two camps, velocity vs. energy. Too me its both but I will take energy every time. I would rather get hit with a motorcycle at 40 mph than a F350 at 30mph.

Lots of elk die every year from 22 caliber centerfires. Not legal in Oregon, of course, but elsewhere.

Speaking of energy, if you are familiar with the 300 Weatherby Mag you will know that a 180 Partition fired from that rifle has over two tons of energy at the muzzle. So why did the 2.5 year old 4x4 I shot in the Cascades at under 100 yards simply turn his head and start walking away? Maybe he didn't read the ballistics table. Or how about the spike a couple of years later, hit with the same bullet from a .30-06 started at almost 2900 FPS, at only 50 yards? Hit broadside while walking and bugling, he just kept on walking despite the through and through behind his shoulder. I have more examples but you get the point.

We're talking about killing elk, not big bears, which will try to kill you, so I will submit that priorities change when there's an outside chance of seeing the inside of a bear.

Energy doesn't kill. Placement, penetration, and destroying vital organs do. Sure, you need sufficient momentum for the bullet to accomplish the last two, but it's meaningless without placement.

I read somewhere that the difference between magnums and standard cartridges of the same caliber is that the bullet hits the ground behind the animal harder.



P

 

[Quirt Evans]

Sounds just awful. I only prefer to shoot elk with no less than a 300 Winchester and primarily 338 Winchester for the exact reason and event that you describe. One good shot to put them down period! I, personally do not like the 30 06 against such a large animal at that distance; prefer inside 150 yards, but still prefer the 338. Just awful story.

Totally on board with that.
Little bullets at high velocity have impressive energy numbers "on paper", but they lack the weight to penetrate to the vitals if they strike heavy bone near the surface.
My personal favorite is the .375 H&H,, but a .338 works too.

 

[Grizzly_A]

Lost the elk? PM me the Coordinates. I'll go for a drive and a hike and bring the State Cops with me

 

[belshawelk]

Lots of elk die every year from 22 caliber centerfires. Not legal in Oregon, of course, but elsewhere.

Speaking of energy, if you are familiar with the 300 Weatherby Mag you will know that a 180 Partition fired from that rifle has over two tons of energy at the muzzle. So why did the 2.5 year old 4x4 I shot in the Cascades at under 100 yards simply turn his head and start walking away? Maybe he didn't read the ballistics table. Or how about the spike a couple of years later, hit with the same bullet from a .30-06 started at almost 2900 FPS, at only 50 yards? Hit broadside while walking and bugling, he just kept on walking despite the through and through behind his shoulder. I have more examples but you get the point.

We're talking about killing elk, not big bears, which will try to kill you, so I will submit that priorities change when there's an outside chance of seeing the inside of a bear.

Energy doesn't kill. Placement, penetration, and destroying vital organs do. Sure, you need sufficient momentum for the bullet to accomplish the last two, but it's meaningless without placement.

I read somewhere that the difference between magnums and standard cartridges of the same caliber is that the bullet hits the ground behind the animal harder.



P

While we can agree on some we disagree on others. I have lost a couple elk. Once I started hitting the shoulder and breaking both I have never had one take a step. This is from my elk I shot this year. Broke both shoulders and was against far hide. At 373 yards. Elk dropped where it stood. 200GR Barns LRX hitting with 2850 LBS of energy. Sounded like a another gun when it hit the elk.

 

[HaveGun]

Lost the elk? PM me the Coordinates. I'll go for a drive and a hike and bring the State Cops with me

Are you implying that my brother should be arrested for his actions?

I'm sure you weren't serious, because that is a ridiculous implication.

He was hunting with his father-in-law, who I suspect has shot more elk than anyone on this board, and if he and my brother couldn't find it, then I suspect it couldn't be found. These are both extremely honorable men with my brother being in law enforcement.

He's a SWAT sniper for his department and took a shot that he thought was adequate. He said he got a good hit and the elk went down.

Then it got up, and his gun jammed. Schitt happens when hunting.

You can argue that the 6.5 PRC is questionable on elk, you can argue that shots over 300 yards on game animals is questionable, and you can argue that spending several hours in the woods in heavy rain and wind in the dark trying to find a wounded animal is simply not enough effort, but to imply that his actions are somehow illegal, or should be involving law enforcement is frankly a bit ridiculous.

 

[No_Regerts]

Then lets shoot a 220 swift or 22-250 for elk. Velocity is only portion of what kills animals. If you don't hit a vital then you terminal shock or to be able to break an animal down. Remember when the FBI switched from the 9mm to the 10mm Why? The 9 doesn't not carry enough energy to put the body in shock on a marginal shot. The 10mm does a much better shot on marginal shot placement.

I am sure you shoot a lot of bears, maybe even big ones. But the number one rule on a big brown bear or grizzly is to break them down. If you can break both shoulders and anchor them you are in really good shape. Velocity is only the delivery mechanism. Its pure energy . That's why most big bear hunters use a .375. It has a big heavy bullet ( NOT moving very fast actually) but delivers a ton of energy.

Obviously there are two camps, velocity vs. energy. Too me its both but I will take energy every time. I would rather get hit with a motorcycle at 40 mph than a F350 at 30mph.

That's not what he said. He said as long as impact velocity is within the bullet designs threshold, energy means little. If the bullet is designed to reliably expand between 1800fps and 2500fps, he doesn't load it at 3300fps and shoot elk at 10 yards.

 

[Koda]

How do we find out what this terminal velocity is?

 

[No_Regerts]

How do we find out what this terminal velocity is?

Each bullet manufacturer will post the velocity range for optimal expansion. For all copper bullets, I add 200fps to their claim. If they say 1800fps minimum, I will shoot as far as the bullet remains at least 2000fps.

 

[Koda]

Each bullet manufacturer will post the velocity range for optimal expansion. For all copper bullets, I add 200fps to their claim. If they say 1800fps minimum, I will shoot as far as the bullet remains at least 2000fps.

Ive tried to find this for the Hornandy rounds I hunt with but cant.

 

[Grizzly_A]

Are you implying that my brother should be arrested for his actions?

I'm sure you weren't serious, because that is a ridiculous implication.

That's a lot of assumptions being made.

I've got no problem with the 6.5PRC as a cartridge, or the shot, or anything. Maybe I missed the post where it was looked for a long time before giving up and quarantining.

Asking for the coordinates - get's me in the region.
Taking the State Police - I can't carry an untagged head out of the woods without the State Police clearing it first. Leave no elk behind!

 

[belshawelk]

That's not what he said. He said as long as impact velocity is within the bullet designs threshold, energy means little. If the bullet is designed to reliably expand between 1800fps and 2500fps, he doesn't load it at 3300fps and shoot elk at 10 yards.

LOL. I am no ballistics expert. But I have either killed, guided or been involved with more elk, bear, deer being taken than most will ever even see in there lifetime. I am not a bench shooter, I don't reload, but I know what kills critters cleanly, ethically and I know how things go bad in a hurry. People can shoot what they want, some are way better shooters than I am, although I can hold my own. Any legal caliber is fine with me, I am only stating my preference per what the post was about. Its still energy no matter you try and slice it. You can line up 50 guns and shoot them all at critters and have them impact at the correct velocity. The ones with the most energy for a correct size game wins when the shot is not placed well. Unfortunately not everyone is able to make vital shots as good as they think. They struggle to shoot in wind, or adverse angles, temp changes or altitude changes. I just prefer to error on the side of caution. Its why I carry a 10mm not a 9

I respect the other opinions, but for me history and experience guide my thinking.

 

[No_Regerts]

LOL. I am no ballistics expert. But I have either killed, guided or been involved with more elk, bear, deer being taken than most will ever even see in there lifetime. I am not a bench shooter, I don't reload, but I know what kills critters cleanly, ethically and I know how things go bad in a hurry. People can shoot what they want, some are way better shooters than I am, although I can hold my own. Any legal caliber is fine with me, I am only stating my preference per what the post was about. Its still energy no matter you try and slice it. You can line up 50 guns and shoot them all at critters and have them impact at the correct velocity. The ones with the most energy for a correct size game wins when the shot is not placed well. Unfortunately not everyone is able to make vital shots as good as they think. They struggle to shoot in wind, or adverse angles, temp changes or altitude changes. I just prefer to error on the side of caution. Its why I carry a 10mm not a 9

I respect the other opinions, but for me history and experience guide my thinking.

Again, you're not understanding. The company who makes a bullet will tell you the velocity in which the bullet needs to travel in order to avoid blow-up or a fail to expand. That has nothing to do with what you choose to shoot whatever with. Every cartridge uses a bullet, and bullets all have a performance envelope. What he said and what you say are neither complimentary or exclusive.

 

[belshawelk]

Again, you're not understanding. The company who makes a bullet will tell you the velocity in which the bullet needs to travel in order to avoid blow-up or a fail to expand. That has nothing to do with what you choose to shoot whatever with. Every cartridge uses a bullet, and bullets all have a performance envelope. What he said and what you say are neither complimentary or exclusive.

Actually I completely understand. Yes bullets are designed to achieve best performance at a specific velocity range. No question. Too much or too little velocity will drastically change a bullets performance. A long range bullet like a Accubond LR or ELDX work better at longer distances so the velocity is correct, they have a thinner jacket to aid in that, Shooting a critter at short distance will literally make the bullet explode on impact. I have seen it myself and much has been written on it. Thats what make 6.5cm shooters instant long range snipers. Accurate bullets that shoot flat. They just don't have the energy to kill, hence my point. Now add a bad shot to the mix.

It smaller caliber bullets moving fast work for you then great. I am all for it. Its your call. For me its heavy bullets with lots of energy. There are lots and lots of opinions. Many old timers who have done this for a while think the best elk cartridge ever designed is the .338 WM. It's not considered fast, but its heavy and carries lots of energy. to each is his own.

 

[No_Regerts]

Actually I completely understand. Yes bullets are designed to achieve best performance at a specific velocity range. No question. Too much or too little velocity will drastically change a bullets performance. A long range bullet like a Accubond LR or ELDX work better at longer distances so the velocity is correct, they have a thinner jacket to aid in that, Shooting a critter at short distance will literally make the bullet explode on impact. I have seen it myself and much has been written on it. Thats what make 6.5cm shooters instant long range snipers. Accurate bullets that shoot flat. They just don't have the energy to kill, hence my point. Now add a bad shot to the mix.

It smaller caliber bullets moving fast work for you then great. I am all for it. Its your call. For me its heavy bullets with lots of energy. There are lots and lots of opinions. Many old timers who have done this for a while think the best elk cartridge ever designed is the .338 WM. It's not considered fast, but its heavy and carries lots of energy. to each is his own.

I'll admit, I'm no fan of smaller calibers/cartridges either. I'm really not a fan of using small caliber target bullets on big game.

 

[CastleRocker]

As far a bullet manufacturers go...I will say the ELD'S are extremely accurate. However, Hornady claims they "perform" best from 1600fps all the way to 3200fps. I can say from personal experience; they are absolutely full of $h!t. I still will say, (once again from my own experiences), that animals are individuals, some are just plain tough, and others are not. I've seen a 5x6 dropped with a double lung, no ribs, hit from a .223 in Idaho, and a smallish 5x5 take two .340 Wby through the lungs, one high shoulder, one liver/guts, (reload), and two in the hams, and it went another 100 yards while out of sight. That one was "tough". I used to box, and some guys can take your best punch over, and over, while some go down in a heap after one. Animals are individuals! Watched my Dad shoot a trotting moose that went down hard, and stayed down for about an hour. It got up when we got to it, and he put one behind the ear at about 5 yards. First shot hit it in the front hoof! That animal was the opposite of tough.

As I said in an earlier post; hunting doesn't end when the shot goes off. Sometimes you need to spend a day or two tracking. Giving up on an animal is irresponsible, and inexcusable.

 

[FishnhuntOR]

Shot placement and bullet construction.
Even with 300 magnum, if you don't hit vitals... it won't matter.
I'm loadin 127 LRX in my 6.5 CM, 130 ttsx in 270 and 168 ttsx in 06. And I would not hesitate with any of those at 400 yards to take an elk. If the elk got up and walked...it's the shooters fault.

The 06 has a pass through on 6 Bulls and a cow at 400 yards with the ttsx