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Then lets shoot a 220 swift or 22-250 for elk. Velocity is only portion of what kills animals. If you don't hit a vital then you terminal shock or to be able to break an animal down. Remember when the FBI switched from the 9mm to the 10mm Why? The 9 doesn't not carry enough energy to put the body in shock on a marginal shot. The 10mm does a much better shot on marginal shot placement.And to the OP, going from 1800 ft/lbs to 2700 ft/lbs to me is a meaningless exercise. If 1800 isn't going to do it, 2700 won't either. Buy a more reliable rifle because follow ups happen, and practice. I keep shooting if they're still standing, regardless of where the first bullet went, so I demand a rifle that functions (Tikka all day every day for me). Modern rifles shouldn't jam.
I don't look at ft/lbs, ever ever ever. I only pay attention to velocity. If the velocity at impact is inside the bullet's performance window, I'm good.
I shoot a lot. I had elk steak for dinner last night, too.
P
Then lets shoot a 220 swift or 22-250 for elk. Velocity is only portion of what kills animals. If you don't hit a vital then you terminal shock or to be able to break an animal down. Remember when the FBI switched from the 9mm to the 10mm Why? The 9 doesn't not carry enough energy to put the body in shock on a marginal shot. The 10mm does a much better shot on marginal shot placement.
I am sure you shoot a lot of bears, maybe even big ones. But the number one rule on a big brown bear or grizzly is to break them down. If you can break both shoulders and anchor them you are in really good shape. Velocity is only the delivery mechanism. Its pure energy . That's why most big bear hunters use a .375. It has a big heavy bullet ( NOT moving very fast actually) but delivers a ton of energy.
Obviously there are two camps, velocity vs. energy. Too me its both but I will take energy every time. I would rather get hit with a motorcycle at 40 mph than a F350 at 30mph.
Totally on board with that.Sounds just awful. I only prefer to shoot elk with no less than a 300 Winchester and primarily 338 Winchester for the exact reason and event that you describe. One good shot to put them down period! I, personally do not like the 30 06 against such a large animal at that distance; prefer inside 150 yards, but still prefer the 338. Just awful story.
While we can agree on some we disagree on others. I have lost a couple elk. Once I started hitting the shoulder and breaking both I have never had one take a step. This is from my elk I shot this year. Broke both shoulders and was against far hide. At 373 yards. Elk dropped where it stood. 200GR Barns LRX hitting with 2850 LBS of energy. Sounded like a another gun when it hit the elk.Lots of elk die every year from 22 caliber centerfires. Not legal in Oregon, of course, but elsewhere.
Speaking of energy, if you are familiar with the 300 Weatherby Mag you will know that a 180 Partition fired from that rifle has over two tons of energy at the muzzle. So why did the 2.5 year old 4x4 I shot in the Cascades at under 100 yards simply turn his head and start walking away? Maybe he didn't read the ballistics table. Or how about the spike a couple of years later, hit with the same bullet from a .30-06 started at almost 2900 FPS, at only 50 yards? Hit broadside while walking and bugling, he just kept on walking despite the through and through behind his shoulder. I have more examples but you get the point.
We're talking about killing elk, not big bears, which will try to kill you, so I will submit that priorities change when there's an outside chance of seeing the inside of a bear.
Energy doesn't kill. Placement, penetration, and destroying vital organs do. Sure, you need sufficient momentum for the bullet to accomplish the last two, but it's meaningless without placement.
I read somewhere that the difference between magnums and standard cartridges of the same caliber is that the bullet hits the ground behind the animal harder.
P
Are you implying that my brother should be arrested for his actions?Lost the elk? PM me the Coordinates. I'll go for a drive and a hike and bring the State Cops with me
Then lets shoot a 220 swift or 22-250 for elk. Velocity is only portion of what kills animals. If you don't hit a vital then you terminal shock or to be able to break an animal down. Remember when the FBI switched from the 9mm to the 10mm Why? The 9 doesn't not carry enough energy to put the body in shock on a marginal shot. The 10mm does a much better shot on marginal shot placement.
I am sure you shoot a lot of bears, maybe even big ones. But the number one rule on a big brown bear or grizzly is to break them down. If you can break both shoulders and anchor them you are in really good shape. Velocity is only the delivery mechanism. Its pure energy . That's why most big bear hunters use a .375. It has a big heavy bullet ( NOT moving very fast actually) but delivers a ton of energy.
Obviously there are two camps, velocity vs. energy. Too me its both but I will take energy every time. I would rather get hit with a motorcycle at 40 mph than a F350 at 30mph.
How do we find out what this terminal velocity is?
Each bullet manufacturer will post the velocity range for optimal expansion. For all copper bullets, I add 200fps to their claim. If they say 1800fps minimum, I will shoot as far as the bullet remains at least 2000fps.
That's a lot of assumptions being made.Are you implying that my brother should be arrested for his actions?
I'm sure you weren't serious, because that is a ridiculous implication.
LOL. I am no ballistics expert. But I have either killed, guided or been involved with more elk, bear, deer being taken than most will ever even see in there lifetime. I am not a bench shooter, I don't reload, but I know what kills critters cleanly, ethically and I know how things go bad in a hurry. People can shoot what they want, some are way better shooters than I am, although I can hold my own. Any legal caliber is fine with me, I am only stating my preference per what the post was about. Its still energy no matter you try and slice it. You can line up 50 guns and shoot them all at critters and have them impact at the correct velocity. The ones with the most energy for a correct size game wins when the shot is not placed well. Unfortunately not everyone is able to make vital shots as good as they think. They struggle to shoot in wind, or adverse angles, temp changes or altitude changes. I just prefer to error on the side of caution. Its why I carry a 10mm not a 9That's not what he said. He said as long as impact velocity is within the bullet designs threshold, energy means little. If the bullet is designed to reliably expand between 1800fps and 2500fps, he doesn't load it at 3300fps and shoot elk at 10 yards.
LOL. I am no ballistics expert. But I have either killed, guided or been involved with more elk, bear, deer being taken than most will ever even see in there lifetime. I am not a bench shooter, I don't reload, but I know what kills critters cleanly, ethically and I know how things go bad in a hurry. People can shoot what they want, some are way better shooters than I am, although I can hold my own. Any legal caliber is fine with me, I am only stating my preference per what the post was about. Its still energy no matter you try and slice it. You can line up 50 guns and shoot them all at critters and have them impact at the correct velocity. The ones with the most energy for a correct size game wins when the shot is not placed well. Unfortunately not everyone is able to make vital shots as good as they think. They struggle to shoot in wind, or adverse angles, temp changes or altitude changes. I just prefer to error on the side of caution. Its why I carry a 10mm not a 9
I respect the other opinions, but for me history and experience guide my thinking.
Actually I completely understand. Yes bullets are designed to achieve best performance at a specific velocity range. No question. Too much or too little velocity will drastically change a bullets performance. A long range bullet like a Accubond LR or ELDX work better at longer distances so the velocity is correct, they have a thinner jacket to aid in that, Shooting a critter at short distance will literally make the bullet explode on impact. I have seen it myself and much has been written on it. Thats what make 6.5cm shooters instant long range snipers. Accurate bullets that shoot flat. They just don't have the energy to kill, hence my point. Now add a bad shot to the mix.Again, you're not understanding. The company who makes a bullet will tell you the velocity in which the bullet needs to travel in order to avoid blow-up or a fail to expand. That has nothing to do with what you choose to shoot whatever with. Every cartridge uses a bullet, and bullets all have a performance envelope. What he said and what you say are neither complimentary or exclusive.
Actually I completely understand. Yes bullets are designed to achieve best performance at a specific velocity range. No question. Too much or too little velocity will drastically change a bullets performance. A long range bullet like a Accubond LR or ELDX work better at longer distances so the velocity is correct, they have a thinner jacket to aid in that, Shooting a critter at short distance will literally make the bullet explode on impact. I have seen it myself and much has been written on it. Thats what make 6.5cm shooters instant long range snipers. Accurate bullets that shoot flat. They just don't have the energy to kill, hence my point. Now add a bad shot to the mix.
It smaller caliber bullets moving fast work for you then great. I am all for it. Its your call. For me its heavy bullets with lots of energy. There are lots and lots of opinions. Many old timers who have done this for a while think the best elk cartridge ever designed is the .338 WM. It's not considered fast, but its heavy and carries lots of energy. to each is his own.