45 Haters

[Deebow]

I am a face shooter, so every caliber works for me.

 

[etrain16]

I have yet to see a 9 or .40 hater offer to be shot by one. The simple fact is that, save for your uber-wasted psycho on drugs, most folks will either turn tail and run at the sight of the gun, or they will immediately cease hostilities when the first round or two hit them. Maybe not every caliber is one shot, one kill, but the point is to stop the threat and survive.

I seriously doubt so many police and military agencies (aside from the tin foil hat conspiracies) would choose anything for the protection of their officers and soldiers that hasn't been proven to be effective.

 

[pioneer461]

I seriously doubt so many police and military agencies (aside from the tin foil hat conspiracies) would choose anything for the protection of their officers and soldiers that hasn't been proven to be effective.

While it is true that many departments actually do the research into ammo and caliber, we often get as many different opinions as seen on this thread. The bottom line for police departments is sadly not proven performance, but "the bottom line." Co$t is a major factor with many departments which issue pistols and ammo. To many times the bean counters overrule the department's firearms trainers.

By-the-way most cops are not firearms experts.

 

[Boboclown]

Meh, I use a .45, .45 or 9mm when out and about. Personally, I like the .45 better since it feels smoother to me. It is what it is. Capacity doesn't matter to me, 13+1 is good enough for me.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'd say there are many more 9mm "haters" or .45acp elitists than the converse.
I never really bothered with the .45 since when I got on the scene pretty good 9mm JHP's were available (Super-Vel, and the normal big names.. pushing 40 years ago) and they then but especially now would expand with certainty given their initial launch velocities (unlike the .45) and a cast .358 dia SWC will cut a full caliber hole and then some (many will tumble, making a 1" wide actual hole in meat and bone without expanding).. unlike any hardball, .45 or otherwise.. and the Hi-Power is and always will be the best semi-auto pistol on the planet.. in part because it's a 9mm.

 

[etrain16]

While it is true that many departments actually do the research into ammo and caliber, we often get as many different opinions as seen on this thread. The bottom line for police departments is sadly not proven performance, but "the bottom line." Co$t is a major factor with many departments which issue pistols and ammo. To many times the bean counters overrule the department's firearms trainers.

By-the-way most cops are not firearms experts.

Would you honestly make that same claim for every police department, every law enforcement agency and every military branch around the world that have relied on 9mm for decades? All of them only care about money? Protecting lives means nothing to them? Your point may be valid in some cases, but I have a feeling that as much as some of these folks want to save money, many more want to stop the threat and protect the lives of their men and women in uniform as well as civilians.

As I've already stated, I like 9, 40 and 45, no hate for any of them. I believe them all to be effective for the purposes for which they have been designed.

 

[pioneer461]

Would you honestly make that same claim for every police department, every law enforcement agency and every military branch around the world that have relied on 9mm for decades? All of them only care about money? Protecting lives means nothing to them? Your point may be valid in some cases, but I have a feeling that as much as some of these folks want to save money, many more want to stop the threat and protect the lives of their men and women in uniform as well as civilians.

As I've already stated, I like 9, 40 and 45, no hate for any of them. I believe them all to be effective for the purposes for which they have been designed.

Of course I would not make such a claim for every military, or police unit. Re-read my post, I said "many" not "every," or even "most." Many. I'm just sharing my 40+ years as a military and police firearms instructor. Take it or leave it, I really don't care. For what it's worth, I was fortunate to have worked for a department that took our advice on firearms and ammo, but some of our neighboring departments did not. We were issued Sig Saur pistols in our choice of caliber, and all duty ammo was high quality HP.

Have a nice day. ​

 

[Kid@Heart]

Wow.

 

[etrain16]

Of course I would not make such a claim for every military, or police unit. Re-read my post, I said "many" not "every," or even "most." Many. I'm just sharing my 40+ years as a military and police firearms instructor. Take it or leave it, I really don't care. For what it's worth, I was fortunate to have worked for a department that took our advice on firearms and ammo, but some of our neighboring departments did not. We were issued Sig Saur pistols in our choice of caliber, and all duty ammo was high quality HP.

Have a nice day. ​

And I conceded in my response that some likely do put money over safety. The point really had to do with whether 9mm is truly an effective round. And I simply believe that just because some agencies may choose it for cost reasons is no reason to dismiss the effectiveness of the caliber altogether (I'm not suggesting you are doing so - but others do).

We can disagree, that doesn't bother me, I just wanted to take the opportunity to respond.

 

[308]

After reading all this I'll probably carry one of each from now on.

 

[slimmer13]

Who'd a thunk a caliber thread would go full we todd lol.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Who'd a thunk a caliber thread would go full we todd lol.

Well said, slim.

 

[No_Regerts]

And I conceded in my response that some likely do put money over safety. The point really had to do with whether 9mm is truly an effective round. And I simply believe that just because some agencies may choose it for cost reasons is no reason to dismiss the effectiveness of the caliber altogether (I'm not suggesting you are doing so - but others do).

We can disagree, that doesn't bother me, I just wanted to take the opportunity to respond.

I do know many agencies have gone back to 9mm because of the difficulty that smaller shooters have with bigger framed guns that fit the 45 and 10mm and cant deal with the 40 and 357 sig recoil in lightweight polymer framed guns. Officers failing to qualify is a problem nationwide.

The typical new hire isnt the 6'2 to 6'5, 210 to 240 pound man anymore. Its the 5'3 to 5'7, 140 pound woman or the 5'7 to 5'10, 150 to 175 pound guy. And most of them arent shooters.

 

[Brutus57]

I feel safer already.......

Brutus out

 

[Boboclown]

5'7 to 5'10, 150 to 175 pound guy

Not sure how a 5"10 175 pound guy can't handle a .45 ACP... It has a smooth recoil to me, and I'm only 160 at 5"8.

 

[No_Regerts]

Not sure how a 5"10 175 pound guy can't handle a .45 ACP... It has a smooth recoil to me, and I'm only 160 at 5"8.

These new guys arent shooters, wrestlers, football players or wrestlers. Many of them are more of the marathon runner types with less than solid wrists........

 

[albin25]

"These new guys arent shooters, wrestlers, football players or wrestlers. Many of them are more of the marathon runner types with less than solid wrists........"

You're right about that...but thanks to years of constant texting they should be able to lift a good sized car with their thumbs

 

[brokenarrow]

"These new guys arent shooters, wrestlers, football players or wrestlers. Many of them are more of the marathon runner types with less than solid wrists........"

You're right about that...but thanks to years constant texting they should be able to lift a good sized car with their thumbs
View attachment 255569

After they remove it from their bubblegum.

 

[Boboclown]

These new guys arent shooters, wrestlers, football players or wrestlers. Many of them are more of the marathon runner types with less than solid wrists........

Meh, they can eventually get up to a .45. Honestly, I always prefer a .45 over a 9mm. I like a smooth push vs. a snap no matter how light.

 

[etrain16]

I do know many agencies have gone back to 9mm because of the difficulty that smaller shooters have with bigger framed guns that fit the 45 and 10mm and cant deal with the 40 and 357 sig recoil in lightweight polymer framed guns. Officers failing to qualify is a problem nationwide.

The typical new hire isnt the 6'2 to 6'5, 210 to 240 pound man anymore. Its the 5'3 to 5'7, 140 pound woman or the 5'7 to 5'10, 150 to 175 pound guy. And most of them arent shooters.

These new guys arent shooters, wrestlers, football players or wrestlers. Many of them are more of the marathon runner types with less than solid wrists........

"These new guys arent shooters, wrestlers, football players or wrestlers. Many of them are more of the marathon runner types with less than solid wrists........"

You're right about that...but thanks to years constant texting they should be able to lift a good sized car with their thumbs
View attachment 255569

Aren't they all supposed to be community policemen now, with degrees in psychology so they can understand the pain of the common street thug? No need to be big or tough when places like Portland will drag you into court for not having a heart to heart talk with the bad guy before you stopped him with gentle, non-threatening and definitely non-lethal means, all the while apologizing to Mr. Bad for having to be interrupted in the course of his daily affairs.

Honestly, I'm surprised some agencies (like PDX, Eugene, etc.) are still issuing guns. Maybe they'll drop them back to .22's and mandate no head shots.