.308 Semiauto rifle choice?

[Ewald]

The Saiga is availible in 308 and is very affordable.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I totally agree that feel is one of the most important factors. If it doesn't feel comfortable when you hold it and shoot it, you will never be really satisfied with it. I don't have a specific price range yet, but would rather not spend more than I have to in order to get the performance I want. In other words, I'm not going to pay more just for a "name". I do like the modularity of the AR-10 platform. The ability to have two different uppers for different purposes is appealing. Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. The info has been very helpful.

Finish this project.

ma ten 308 custom repr lwrc scar acr noveske : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com

 

[gaijinsamurai]

I'm a fan of the FAL.

 

[Otis61]

I'm a fan of the FAL.

Hey gaijinsamurai good to see you here!

I also am a fan of the FAL. Lots of potential there. If your budget is around $1000-1200 you can get a very nice one. In my oppinion it would be hard to get anything of that quality for the price.

 

[turq]

M1A Classic to the U.S.

Accurate.

Accurate, Get a Nat'l. Match; done.

 

[CavVet]

M1A Classic to the U.S.

Accurate.

Accurate, Get a Nat'l. Match; done.

 

[imandrew18]

U don't get better than a ap4
View attachment 190910

 

[corpsman]

I take an old school tack. I own 3 Garands in 30-06. I intend to convert two to 7.62x51. This is reasonably simple to do as all that is required is a 7,62x51 barrel and a slightly enlarged gas port, or better, an after market adjustable gas plug valve such as sold by McCann Industries or Fulton Arms. A safety spacer is a good idea to prevent accidental loading with 30-06. Of course, head spacing is required. The third Garand will remain 30-06 to justify my 30-06 ammo supply and as it has a thicker Douglas medium barrel. To expensive to replace in 7.62x51. 30-06 mil-surp ammo is becoming difficult to find at a sane price as no one is making it for military consumption anymore.

So, why a Garand in the first place? Cheaper to get into. A decent functional Garand can be had for less than $600. Forget about all the sky high prices. Ordering a Garand from CMP or patient shopping will get what is needed. The current economy makes buying on speculation against supposed collector value a risky idea. The conversion should run less than $300. Look for a lightly used 7.62x51 barrel. Shufff's Parkerizing does a nice conversion as well as conversions to M1A mags, something I would not do.

The Garand uses 8 round em-bloc clips. To contemporary standards that seems to be an unsuitable loading method. However, practice can address that issue handily. The em bloc clip loading process is 3 steps. As the empty clip is ejected automatically, all that is required is to take the clip from its load bearing pouch, insert and hit the op rod handle. There is no doubt when the magazine is empty. "Ping!" Garand thumb occurs when the shooter does not retract the bolt fully while loading the first clip. I observed several WW2 vets in their 80's putting out 35 aimed rounds a minute off hand. A rate that fast is rarely required in combat.

The amazing thing is storage. A typical GI 20 round mag pouch will hold 40 rounds of 7.62x51 in two box mags. The same pouch will hold 7 Garand clips of 30-06 (aka 7.62x63), or 56 rounds. My son and I use 40mm grenade load bearing vests. Each grenade pouch will hold one 8 round clip for a total of 144 rounds on the vest, nicely distributed for better weight tolerance. So the vest and one GI double mag pouch provides a battle load of 200 rounds plus 8 rounds in the rifle. Extra clips carry easily in a pocket. In 7.62x51, nearly the same clip space is required, but there is a minor weight advantage per round. Oh yes, the clips work well with 7.62x51.

The main complaint about the Garand is its weight. However, I notice that, loaded, the M1A and the FAL are nearly the same weight as the loaded Garand, with less quality of balance. More boolits. Another option is to go to a synthetic stock. Ramline makes them in black and several camo patterns for less than $75.

Ergonomically, I see the Garand as elegant. Using the hasty sling, the rifle is well balanced, making maintaining a fair sight picture while reloading feasible, again, with practice. Since there is no magazine protruding from the rifle, placing the support hand flat and directly under the magazine plate while using the hasty sling allows free use of the trigger hand to reload. The balance is near perfect. In the prone position you have the additional advantage of using your elbows to contact the ground. On the other hand, if you are into CQB, best get an AK. And see a shrink.

The rifle is effective out to 700 plus meters with the best iron sights made. Same ones used on the M1A. There is little difference in ballistics between the 30-06 and the 7.62x51, assuming the use of the same bullets (typically 147 gr FMJ of .308 diameter) and barrel length. After market picatiinney scout scope or red dot rails are available. These do not interfere with the iron sights. Again, Fulton Arms. 2 weeks after the SHTF, iron sights will rule.

I own a M1A and a nice DSA FAL with 18" barrel and a red dot or scope. The FAL has a click windage adjustable DSA rear sight. All are accurate, certainly more than sufficient for a battle rifle. However, were I to have to choose just one rifle it would be a 7.62x51 Garand. My experience is that 7.61x51 has slightly less perceived recoil.



Please ignore the NHM 91 AK. Sold it.

I also have 3 of the Ishapore 2A SMLE's in 7.62x51, one full length and 2 Navy Arms carbine conversions. Very fast bolt actions, 12 round removable mags and stripper clip wells, stone simple and the carbines are sweet to handle. #1 Mk III type open sights with inadequate sight radius. They kick fairly well and the carbines put out a large flame. Fun. I would not spend more than $400.



corpsman

 

[Blitzkrieg]

from my experience, I would avoid the PTR91 (ptr91 = hk91 = g3, for the most part). They are reliable and mags can be had for next to nothing. But they are the suck to put an optic on, the trigger on the one I had was way heavy, they beat the heck out of the brass (assuming you reload or might want to at some point), and they are rather difficult to put a decent bipod on

Really? I LOVE the G3/PTR 91. Allow me to dispel some of your negative comments about these fine rifles

Optics? Perhaps the easiest to mount solid, quick detach optics and to swap between optics fast and with return to zero.. the HK claw mount, one minute swap of optics is possible if you practice. New they are selling for $170 with the Picatinny rail adapter:



On the rifle.. you can still use the iron sights:



The new PTR 91 target versions come with an excellent, rugged full Picatinny rail aircraft aluminum alloy capable fore end.. pre drilled..just add the rails where you want them. Here we see one with a lower rail added and an easy bipod install.. it's similar to how I have mine set up. They are available from several aftermarket sources

The HK rifles are not hard on brass if you buy the super easy to install port buffer accessory. I reload my HK/PTR brass at least 5 x

These rifles are easily capable of 2 MOA with mil surp ammo and iron sights and even better with a scope. My trigger job from William's Triggers dropped the pull down from 10 lbs to less than 5 lbs, and super slick, cost.. $65 and all I sent in was the lower, which is not the "registered" part. They are my hands down 7.62 NATO favorite rifles and are VERY easy to customize. German parts are still available and US parts are now being manufactured for easy 922R compliance. Mags are as cheap as $0.89 each!

 

[CavVet]

I take an old school tack. I own 3 Garands in 30-06. I intend to convert two to 7.62x51. This is reasonably simple to do as all that is required is a 7,62x51 barrel and a slightly enlarged gas port, or better, an after market adjustable gas plug valve such as sold by McCann Industries or Fulton Arms.

corpsman

Heretic.

 

[mjbskwim]

This is my weak area,what is the main differences in the G3 and the FAL?
The receiver is stamped or machined? What other important features?
And if it's just for Zombies and to make noise once in a while,do the differences matter much?

And if one of you guys with both could do a cool side by side or under/over that would be worth many thanks.
I can get picks on line,but right next to each other would really show the stuff(or a link)

For some reason I'm avoiding the AR 10s.Don't know why.Maybe I just want one of these guys.

Again thanks in advance

 

[Blitzkrieg]

G3.. stamped steel (unless it's one of the aluminum knock offs)

FAL.. forged or cast steel

For me the FAL ergos just don't work well but the G3 does. others swear the opposite. The G3 is shorter and handier IMO, especially with an A3 collapsing stock. FAL mags are getting to be more and more expensive while this is the golden age for G3 surplus parts and mags. I love the look of the FAL but for me-not it's ergos

I recommend you handle each before you make up your mind. Keep in mind there are many versions of each out there, shorter 16 inch barrels or longer, heavy barrels, stocks, sight options, etc. PTR has a new GI model that is patterned after the original G3 design while several US makers offer shorter FAL and paratrooper designs

Here are a few links, and there are forums out there for both guns:

FN FAL - Gunpedia

Modern Firearms - HK G3

If you get the HK bug PM me and I'll get you some links for parts and an HK forum

 

[mjbskwim]

Problem is,there is one here in town and the next to compare it with is 50+ miles away.
I gotta find a shop with both in it to really get the differences.I just don't see them in the picture.
Basically the two aren't physically too different?
The guy at the shops don't really seem to know much about them either.At least at my accessible shops.
Any place in Everett to look?

 

[gaijinsamurai]

G3.. stamped steel (unless it's one of the aluminum knock offs)

FAL.. forged or cast steel

For me the FAL ergos just don't work well but the G3 does. others swear the opposite. The G3 is shorter and handier IMO, especially with an A3 collapsing stock. FAL mags are getting to be more and more expensive while this is the golden age for G3 surplus parts and mags. I love the look of the FAL but for me-not it's ergos

I recommend you handle each before you make up your mind. Keep in mind there are many versions of each out there, shorter 16 inch barrels or longer, heavy barrels, stocks, sight options, etc. PTR has a new GI model that is patterned after the original G3 design while several US makers offer shorter FAL and paratrooper designs

x2. Good post. I prefer the FAL, but both are good rifles, and like a lot of pistols, it mostly boils down to personal preference.

 

[mjbskwim]

What about the CTME? for under $600.Everything looked in great shape,smooth bolt and all

Seems like a pretty good deal for a 308 semi auto,considering what some are asking for an SKS

 

[corpsman]

@ CavVet.
Hmmmm. Perhaps, what you Army pukes don't realize, is that the senior service, my beloved Navy, did 7.62x51 conversions on tens of thousands of Garands during the 60's and 70's, working out the kinks and determining the best material and tools. These conversions make the (IMHO) Garand logistically usable for another 65 years. I trained with and carried the M14 in a wet humid environment for Uncle, lived through the forced switch to the Mattel mouse gun. To many of my Marines did not. I really like the M14 and is my clear second choice. Another factor I missed is the logistical advantage of the Garand clip over the box magazines. Losing a $1 clip is a lot easier to tolerate than losing a $30 box mag. As well, carrying spare empty clips is lot more doable than carrying spare empty box mags.



corpsman

Semper Fi

 

[corpsman]

Another rifle that interests me is the Saiga .308, converted to AK standard. I am told the new 25 round mags work well. Prefer rear aperture sights and I suppose that such are available for the Saiga. Have seen finished rifles offered at $700. I also hear that the mags are expensive which leads me to suspect that acquiring 8 mags (200rounds) will more than negate the lower initial cost advantage of the rifle. Anyone have working experience?

corpsman

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Problem is,there is one here in town and the next to compare it with is 50+ miles away.
I gotta find a shop with both in it to really get the differences.I just don't see them in the picture.
Basically the two aren't physically too different?
The guy at the shops don't really seem to know much about them either.At least at my accessible shops.
Any place in Everett to look?

I'm in Lacey and you can stop by sometime and handle my PTR 91 heavy barrel target model and ask questions if you like. I dunno about Everett. The last people I would ask is some of the Western WA gun shop people, many are just min wage hires with little to no real knowledge about battle rifles

The difference is in ergos.. and length and balance. These are heavy battle rifles, not CQC weapons unless you're big and burly. Carrying one all day in combat with a pack and ammo load would wear most folks out fast. On the other hand when you need penetration and range, they are very handy indeed. If you lived in Alaska where the big bears are it sure would beat a 5.56

 

[Blitzkrieg]

What about the CTME? for under $600.Everything looked in great shape,smooth bolt and all

Seems like a pretty good deal for a 308 semi auto,considering what some are asking for an SKS

Hit and miss. Many are built by Century.. roll of the dice. But they do have a 1 year warranty if you're prepared to possibly send it in several times. Really, this is right from my favorite HK forum. The CETMEs will often require slight mods to G3 mags for proper fit and function. For me the extra 400 to 500 bucks for a PTR was money well spent, and with the new PTR GI model going for $850 to $900 now, even less difference. The GI is my next personal rifle, will keep it light, just Eotech holo on a claw, forward 5 position grip and A3 stock plus trigger mods

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Another rifle that interests me is the Saiga .308, converted to AK standard. I am told the new 25 round mags work well. Prefer rear aperture sights and I suppose that such are available for the Saiga. Have seen finished rifles offered at $700. I also hear that the mags are expensive which leads me to suspect that acquiring 8 mags (200rounds) will more than negate the lower initial cost advantage of the rifle. Anyone have working experience?

corpsman

Workable, reliable guns with uber expensive mags. For me I will not own a battle rifle without at least 35-40 mags, so it's out of my consideration. You can buy a grade 2/3 100 pack of G3 mags for $89 and for $0.99 each, all grade 2 mags (aluminum) Steel mags are as cheap as $2 each right now, grade 2 (Grade 2, a little rust maybe, maybe scratches and small dents.. easy to fix up with some elbow grease and spray paint. Plenty of perfect mags available now for a bit more $$