.22 for SD. My own little study.....for what it's worth.

[Pandaz3]

Well This thread did focus my attention on .22's and got me off the dime to do something. I bought a new Ruger SR-22 ($320 at Big R) and a new Henry AR-7 ($220 at Bi-Mart) I still intend to get a 4 something snubbie revolver for my primary carry purposes and I'm still looking at them.

 

[JackD]

Maybe if you were really interested, you could spend about two minutes with Google and find them yourself rather easily. Too much trouble, I guess, since you already feel 'validated'.

Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds

Thompson-LaGarde

Office of Medical History - WOUND BALLISTICS

1904 Handgun Ammunition Trials

That should be plenty of material to get you started.

Thanks, Ought Six.

Actually, I have done that several times. Including about two hours yesterday...and I never came up with these. Maybe I'm not using the same search terms as you are. At any rate, I have always been of the opinion that if you refer to, or quote someone else, you should always (if possible) link to that article, or study. Failing that it should be named. At any rate I appreciate the links.

I'm reading as I said I would, and will read them all. Also awaiting more links as most of what I see from these links are just articles and book reviews. Not to say they are not useful.......but (so far) they are not studies (one does include drawings of bullet paths through gelatin). They may link to studies, however, so maybe I will find what you mention when you say "dozens of studies".

 

[soberups]

In the unfortunate event that you ever have to actually draw and use that weapon to defend your life or the life of a loved one from a psycho/tweaker/meth head/gang banger..... it isnt going to be a "study" any more. Theories arent going to matter any more, and hypothetical "one shot stopping power" tables gleaned from gun magazines and Internet articles are not going to be relevant to the matter at hand. Your life, or the life of a loved one, may very well hinge on your ability to put big holes in your attacker so that he will bleed out before taking you with him. I highly doubt that anybody who has ever actually been in a gunfight looks back on it today and wishes that they had been armed with a smaller gun.

With all due respect, it seems to me like you are going to pretty great lengths to convince yourself that you are making the right choice by entrusting your life to a .22.

 

[soberups]

There was a time in the not-too distant past when the Walther PPK and the S&W J-framed snubby were pretty much "it" as far as service-caliber concealable weapons were concerned, and if a smaller weapon was required then you either got a .22/.25 auto, or a derringer. There wasnt much available in between.

Today, the wide availability of lightweight, easily concealable and affordable pocket guns in .380 or even 9mm means that there is no longer any rational basis for someone to rely upon a .22 for personal defense.

 

[JackD]

There was a time in the not-too distant past when the Walther PPK and the S&W J-framed snubby were pretty much "it" as far as service-caliber concealable weapons were concerned, and if a smaller weapon was required then you either got a .22/.25 auto, or a derringer. There wasnt much available in between.

Today, the wide availability of lightweight, easily concealable and affordable pocket guns in .380 or even 9mm means that there is no longer any rational basis for someone to rely upon a .22 for personal defense.

Again, I agree with you and I've said there are better choices than the .22LR. In the last two+ weeks, I've fired almost 1500 rounds through the two .22's. With a .380 at $15/box of 50 the same number of rounds would have cost me $450. .22LR bulk ammo is $17.90/ carton of 525 rounds. That's about $50 for the same niumber of rounds fired. Money is a big concern for me and weighed heavily on my decision. I love to shoot and I have my own indoor range setup in my shop. I can't afford to buy guns for all occasions. The .22's first duty is my enjoyment. Carrying for self defense is secondary. If a person can afford that kind of expense, then by all means, they should get something that is better then the .22LR.

 

[Ought Six]

I'm reading as I said I would, and will read them all. Also awaiting more links as most of what I see from these links are just articles and book reviews. Not to say they are not useful.......but (so far) they are not studies (one does include drawings of bullet paths through gelatin). They may link to studies, however, so maybe I will find what you mention when you say "dozens of studies".

The first link is to FirearmsStatistical.com. The first link on that page is the FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness manual. The second link is to one of the seminal would ballistics studies done by the U.S. Army, the Thompson-Legarde Tests. The third link is to comprehensive list of studies of war wounds from different caliber weapons in WWII and Korea. The fourth link is to a comprehensive study done by the USMC with a variety of handgun calibers fired into human corpses, with an analysis of the wound channels created. "No studies"? Are you kidding me?

Here is another one for you:

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

When I have more time, I will do some more looking.

 

[Wildcat]

With practice, a .22 isn't a poor choice in CC. A .44 mag. will do less damage if poorly shot than a .22 will if shot accurately. With enough practice, a .22 is a far better choice than a larger caliber that isn't shot a lot. In a panic situation, the gun with which one has practiced most with will be the most natural.

 

[SynapticSilence]

I have six pistols and a revolver. I have a S&W full-size M&P .45, a Sig C3 1911, a Caracal Compact 9mm, a Beretta Tomcat .32, a Beretta Cheetah .380, a Magnum Research Micro Desert Eagle .380, and an S&W Model 30 .357 2 1/8" snubbie revolver. How I dress dictates what I carry, although I am never anywhere without the Micro Desert Eagle. I would encourage you to consider something like that. It's tiny, reliable through 600 rounds of .380 with zero malfunctions, light enough to carry at 14 oz but heavy enough to manage self-defense rounds with minimal recoil, accurate enough to put 50 out of 50 rounds in a life-sized half-silhouette target at 50 feet, and is invisible in anything you could conceive of. It holds 6+1 rounds with another 6 in a tiny magazine that fits in even the smallest pocket. I use Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints that I certainly wouldn't want to get shot with. I agree that you should carry what you'll carry. But in my opinion based on my own research, stopping power is what usually counts in self-defense situations, not lethality. Given my choice, 230 grain .45 ACP Gold Dots would always be my first option. At the other end, though, a hot .380 hollowpoint is as low as I would go.

 

[mjbskwim]

This horse ain't dead yet?

 

[Tbucket]

Apparently not and now has progressed to name calling and insults. The man has a choice and seems informed, gave reasons why he carries what he does and all every one but a few do is tell him he is ignorant and stupid for doing it! While I may not agree with him I sure as hell do think it is better than nothing if he practices with it and can rapid fire a tight group with it.

 

[coop44]

Where are these drug crazed lunatics? Which neighborhoods do you guys live in? Please list them so they can be avoided. I have never met any drug crazed lunatics (other than at college, and that was fun, another story)

Who ever said (other than a gun manufacturer, or that moron behind the gun counter) that a .22 was a good practice weapon? recoil, sight picture versus point of impact are totally different.

If you really want to stop some one with a .22, stop applying large caliber tactics to a small caliber weapon. Go for those areas where the most pain can be affected, hands, feet, arms, legs. In a true self defense situation your target will be closer than, say, 25 feet. It shouldn't be difficult to make the shot.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

If you really want to stop some one with a .22, stop applying large caliber tactics to a small caliber weapon. Go for those areas where the most pain can be affected, hands, feet, arms, legs. In a true self defense situation your target will be closer than, say, 25 feet. It shouldn't be difficult to make the shot.

I personally feel that this tactic won't work very well. What with your adrenaline dump going on the odds of being able to deliberately aim for and hit one of those extremities, all of which, I believe, will moving must faster then the torso, would be extremely great against you. I feel that the shot would be difficult to make indeed.

 

[Ought Six]

Where are these drug crazed lunatics? Which neighborhoods do you guys live in? Please list them so they can be avoided. I have never met any drug crazed lunatics (other than at college, and that was fun, another story)

The idea that you will never meet a criminal on drugs because you are in a 'good neighborhood' is a dangerous delusion. Your odds of suffering any kind of attack are lower in a more affluent, lower-crime neighborhood, but that is all.
----------

If you really want to stop some one with a .22, stop applying large caliber tactics to a small caliber weapon. Go for those areas where the most pain can be affected, hands, feet, arms, legs. In a true self defense situation your target will be closer than, say, 25 feet. It shouldn't be difficult to make the shot.

This is not just bad advice, it is potentially life-threatening advice. If you are being attacked, your attacker will be rushing you. That means his hand, feet, legs and arms will be small moving targets. While you are shooting at and missing those small moving targets, those bullets will be traveling downrange to possibly hit some innocent bystander. Meanwhile, your attacker will be on you, knock you to the ground, and try his best to take away your gun and use it on you.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Thanks, Ought Six.

Actually, I have done that several times. Including about two hours yesterday...and I never came up with these. Maybe I'm not using the same search terms as you are. At any rate, I have always been of the opinion that if you refer to, or quote someone else, you should always (if possible) link to that article, or study. Failing that it should be named. At any rate I appreciate the links.

I'm reading as I said I would, and will read them all. Also awaiting more links as most of what I see from these links are just articles and book reviews. Not to say they are not useful.......but (so far) they are not studies (one does include drawings of bullet paths through gelatin). They may link to studies, however, so maybe I will find what you mention when you say "dozens of studies".

\
The Swiss La Guarde tests using live goats puts the 22 in it's place.. small game caliber.. as in squirrels. Ever attacked by a vicious squirrel? Go for it

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The idea that you will never meet a criminal on drugs because you are in a 'good neighborhood' is a dangerous delusion. Your odds of suffering any kind of attack are lower in a more affluent, lower-crime neighborhood, but that is all.
----------This is not just bad advice, it is potentially life-threatening advice. If you are being attacked, your attacker will be rushing you. That means his hand, feet, legs and arms will be small moving targets. While you are shooting at and missing those small moving targets, those bullets will be traveling downrange to possibly hit some innocent bystander. Meanwhile, your attacker will be on you, knock you to the ground, and try his best to take away your gun and use it on you.

Ar this point I call troll on the OP

Not merely ignorant, intentionally misleading

 

[acp]

For all the nay sayers stand infront of a 22 there only a 20% chance you will die right?!

 

[tacwash]

This horse ain't dead yet?

HA! Nope. I guess not... For the Record : 22 Caliber - YouTube

 

[Ought Six]

For all the nay sayers stand infront of a 22 there only a 20% chance you will die right?!

Same with a powerful .177 pellet gun. I guess that makes it a dandy defense weapon, right?

 

[gunnails]

Quality link that directly relates to this discussion. Thanks tacwash.

[video=youtube_share;hdr14xVetXM]http://youtu.be/hdr14xVetXM[/video]

 

[Bigfoot]

My 357 is a bit heavy to carry hunting. Since the 22lr is so freekin awesome for defense I'm going to carry it this year. Those that hunt blacktail with a 22LR pistol, what ammo works well for you? Is it powerful enough for elk too?