.22 for SD. My own little study.....for what it's worth.

[FortunateSon]

More fuel for the fire...........

Trends in Self Defense Part 2: The Mighty .22LR | Guns Save Lives

I posted earlier that I would not use a .22 as my primary defense weapon, and that is and always will be true. Depending on the circumstances though, that may be all you have within reach and seconds (even a fraction of a second!) count. You can do tons of research and find that there are scores of documented cases where the .22 was successful in defending someone and/or their home. You will also find scores that show failure. Whether it is a choice or you simply are put into a position where you have to use a .22, it is still better than having nothing at all. The bottom line is -

DON'T ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE VICTIMIZED. Fight back with whatever you feel comfortable with or have in hand.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The only way a .22 mousegun is going to stop any determined attacker is to take out the brain.. and even that is chancy as I have read of people shot in the brain with a .357 magnum who survived

 

[coop44]

You will always find examples to support any claims for or against any caliber if you look for them.

If you think a .22 is ineffective, go out in the back yard and shoot yourself in the head with one. Get back with us and let us know how that works out for you.

Going by what I've seen here, it shouldn't be any more painful than a bee sting, right?

Every caliber has it's stories, some true some not.

The anomolous will always stand out and be used by detractors, you will find "experts" everywhere on the internet.

 

[mjbskwim]

Boy! Did you ever open a can of worms, JackD

No kidding.
So lets say, any caliber can kill someone and no caliber is guaranteed to kill anyone
And carry the largest caliber that you can shoot well enough to do the job.The job being stopping the threat,incapacitating the attacker.

Oh and remember that about 99% of crimes are either drug or alcohol related.
So the person you are about to shoot,probably has drugs in his system.

 

[JackD]

My decision is just that. My decision. I am the only one that has to live...or die...with that decision. I haven't said that everyone, or anyone, should do what I did. I am an individual, making decisions that I feel best suit my purposes and needs. Just like everyone else does.

It appears to me that it (decision of what to carry) is a state of mind. Some (me) are not looking for trouble and will do everthing they can to avoid it. Others might be of the opinion that the best defense is a good offense. That's a good plan if your playing the game. I prefer to stand off to the side and watch the game and only participate only if cornered and forced. And you have to catch me to corner me. I'll go way out of my way to avoid situations that don't look right. Others might be of a mind set to stand and fight, no matter what. That's OK with me, too. Just not my way.

I looked at the two links posted by Blitzkrieg, and my first thought was; this isn't me.... this is meant for police, swat, or GI's. I'm not going to war. That's their job. I'm a little old man going to the grocery store, ot the corner hardware store. I don't drive a Mercedes and my watch is a Timex. There's nothing about me that says "wealthy". I'm not trying to be a target. I don't go to places that make me uncomfortable or wary. The chances of my being attacked on the street are probably slim to none and a gun of any kind will deter most (but perhaps, not all) attackers.

There are too many "scenarios" for me to even try to be prepared for all of them. The best I can do is to prepare for what I believe is the "most likely". Most likely any attack on me is going to be in my home. That's where all of my valuables are...and I'm well prepared there. On the street, I'm just another ant on the ant hill. Nothing special. Few would want to come after me and if they do, at least I can "Sting" them. At most, I can kill them. Attack me for what? A fifteen years old car? Plastic in my wallet?

Truth is, I only carried about 10-15% of the time when I had the .38. It wasn't comfortable. I may carry more with the "pocket pistol" since it is so easy to carry concealed, even in light Summer clothing, than the .38 was, and because of that, I am better protected now than I was then. A .22LR in the pocket is better than my old .38 at home.

There are small easily concealed guns available, to be sure, but if your retired and living on SS and little else, it's not always possible to buy a gun for every occasion. I decided on a .22LR simply because it is cheap to shoot, cheap to practice with, and fun, too. I bought it for fun and peace of mind is secondary. I feel it will do the job, if I do my part.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

A state of mind can get you killed; You know little, grasshopper

 

[SteelyDan]

It's pretty easy to say "it's only about you" but in reality that's not true, unless you are a hermit. Suppose you are in the grocery store or hardware store and some tweaker takes the checker hostage at knife point. You may have to pull your weapon to save their life (at least I hope you would if circumstances were such!) at that point, your decision to carry a miniscule caliber will have an effect on more people than just you.

A decision to carry a weapon encompasses more than just your personal safety. Yes, you are not the police, military or a superhero. You are a human and if you can prevent death or harm to another individual I would hope you would choose. If you carry a weapon, that victim's chance for survival just went up drastically! Sure, you can use the adage of any gun is better than no gun but if you are given a choice wouldn't you carry the gun that might give you the edge you need to survive? I can use a crescent wrench as a hammer in a pinch but that doesn't make it the best tool choice.

 

[JackD]

It's pretty easy to say "it's only about you" but in reality that's not true, unless you are a hermit. Suppose you are in the grocery store or hardware store and some tweaker takes the checker hostage at knife point. You may have to pull your weapon to save their life (at least I hope you would if circumstances were such!) at that point, your decision to carry a miniscule caliber will have an effect on more people than just you.

A decision to carry a weapon encompasses more than just your personal safety. Yes, you are not the police, military or a superhero. You are a human and if you can prevent death or harm to another individual I would hope you would choose. If you carry a weapon, that victim's chance for survival just went up drastically! Sure, you can use the adage of any gun is better than no gun but if you are given a choice wouldn't you carry the gun that might give you the edge you need to survive? I can use a crescent wrench as a hammer in a pinch but that doesn't make it the best tool choice.

Valid point. and, Yes, I would do what I can....but my actions, being a citizen untrained in combat, could make matters worse. A bigger gun could be a through and through and take out more than I wanted, including the checker or another bystander. A .22LR will likely stop in the attacker, even at close range. I'll take my chances with my little .22LR, and hope that scenario never come to pass.

 

[techieguy]

This is an interesting read, real world stats of how effective handgun on stopping BG's
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

 

[GED]

My decision is just that. My decision. I am the only one that has to live...or die...with that decision. I haven't said that everyone, or anyone, should do what I did. I am an individual, making decisions that I feel best suit my purposes and needs. Just like everyone else does.

It appears to me that it (decision of what to carry) is a state of mind. Some (me) are not looking for trouble and will do everthing they can to avoid it. Others might be of the opinion that the best defense is a good offense. That's a good plan if your playing the game. I prefer to stand off to the side and watch the game and only participate only if cornered and forced. And you have to catch me to corner me. I'll go way out of my way to avoid situations that don't look right. Others might be of a mind set to stand and fight, no matter what. That's OK with me, too. Just not my way.

I looked at the two links posted by Blitzkrieg, and my first thought was; this isn't me.... this is meant for police, swat, or GI's. I'm not going to war. That's their job. I'm a little old man going to the grocery store, ot the corner hardware store. I don't drive a Mercedes and my watch is a Timex. There's nothing about me that says "wealthy". I'm not trying to be a target. I don't go to places that make me uncomfortable or wary. The chances of my being attacked on the street are probably slim to none and a gun of any kind will deter most (but perhaps, not all) attackers.

There are too many "scenarios" for me to even try to be prepared for all of them. The best I can do is to prepare for what I believe is the "most likely". Most likely any attack on me is going to be in my home. That's where all of my valuables are...and I'm well prepared there. On the street, I'm just another ant on the ant hill. Nothing special. Few would want to come after me and if they do, at least I can "Sting" them. At most, I can kill them. Attack me for what? A fifteen years old car? Plastic in my wallet?

Truth is, I only carried about 10-15% of the time when I had the .38. It wasn't comfortable. I may carry more with the "pocket pistol" since it is so easy to carry concealed, even in light Summer clothing, than the .38 was, and because of that, I am better protected now than I was then. A .22LR in the pocket is better than my old .38 at home.

There are small easily concealed guns available, to be sure, but if your retired and living on SS and little else, it's not always possible to buy a gun for every occasion. I decided on a .22LR simply because it is cheap to shoot, cheap to practice with, and fun, too. I bought it for fun and peace of mind is secondary. I feel it will do the job, if I do my part.

I hear you and agree with you 100%, Jack D, esp. about avoiding trouble. I go out of my way to avoid trouble and during my 11-plus miles a week walks I'm always on the look out for potential trouble-esp. when I reach the area around 82nd Ave. on my way up to the top of Mt. Tabor(it's called defensive walking).

I sometimes carry this Walther TPH 22LR. It's very comfortable to carry, cheap to shoot-I'm retired too-and very accurate. I know that 4 or 5 shots in the proverbial charging 250-300 pound meth freak's big, wide, ugly fat face(incl. one or two in his gaping, frothing mouth)will stop even him-ouch!

 

[Grunwald]

If a .22 was effective at stopping a charging threat, why doesn't the military or law enforcement use them. Ive heard of people being shot in the head with a .22 while they are asleep, and waking up thinking they had a head headache. only to find there old lady tried to kill them in their sleep. It doesn't matter how good your aim is if you are ducking and weaving to avoid a assailants weapon. If under attack, you could only have
a fraction of a second, and moving targets are hard to hit. Try practicing with that .22 on moving targets and see how well you do. You might only get one shot on target, it better count. That said, I love shooting my .22's. Cheap to shoot and very accurate.

I find this very hard to believe. I've read before that the .22 was the caliber of choice for Mob assassins doing head shots. One reason given was that it would penetrate going in, but ricochet trying to go out, thus doing more damage.

 

[SteelyDan]

Valid point. and, Yes, I would do what I can....but my actions, being a citizen untrained in combat, could make matters worse. A bigger gun could be a through and through and take out more than I wanted, including the checker or another bystander. A .22LR will likely stop in the attacker, even at close range. I'll take my chances with my little .22LR, and hope that scenario never come to pass.

I hope you are just trying to keep the debate alive and don't actually believe that.

 

[Misterbill]

My decision is just that. My decision. I am the only one that has to live...or die...with that decision. I haven't said that everyone, or anyone, should do what I did. I am an individual, making decisions that I feel best suit my purposes and needs. Just like everyone else does.

It appears to me that it (decision of what to carry) is a state of mind. Some (me) are not looking for trouble and will do everthing they can to avoid it. Others might be of the opinion that the best defense is a good offense. That's a good plan if your playing the game. I prefer to stand off to the side and watch the game and only participate only if cornered and forced. And you have to catch me to corner me. I'll go way out of my way to avoid situations that don't look right. Others might be of a mind set to stand and fight, no matter what. That's OK with me, too. Just not my way.

I looked at the two links posted by Blitzkrieg, and my first thought was; this isn't me.... this is meant for police, swat, or GI's. I'm not going to war. That's their job. I'm a little old man going to the grocery store, ot the corner hardware store. I don't drive a Mercedes and my watch is a Timex. There's nothing about me that says "wealthy". I'm not trying to be a target. I don't go to places that make me uncomfortable or wary. The chances of my being attacked on the street are probably slim to none and a gun of any kind will deter most (but perhaps, not all) attackers.

There are too many "scenarios" for me to even try to be prepared for all of them. The best I can do is to prepare for what I believe is the "most likely". Most likely any attack on me is going to be in my home. That's where all of my valuables are...and I'm well prepared there. On the street, I'm just another ant on the ant hill. Nothing special. Few would want to come after me and if they do, at least I can "Sting" them. At most, I can kill them. Attack me for what? A fifteen years old car? Plastic in my wallet?

Truth is, I only carried about 10-15% of the time when I had the .38. It wasn't comfortable. I may carry more with the "pocket pistol" since it is so easy to carry concealed, even in light Summer clothing, than the .38 was, and because of that, I am better protected now than I was then. A .22LR in the pocket is better than my old .38 at home.

There are small easily concealed guns available, to be sure, but if your retired and living on SS and little else, it's not always possible to buy a gun for every occasion. I decided on a .22LR simply because it is cheap to shoot, cheap to practice with, and fun, too. I bought it for fun and peace of mind is secondary. I feel it will do the job, if I do my part.

I have to winder at this point whether you are just trolling.

EVERY study done on defensive shooting, whether on the LEO or the Civilian side, pretty well shows thge .22 LR as a totally incapable round. You've been replied to by multiple people with this info.

If you should choose the .22 LR round as your preferred SD weapon in spite of the fact that the .380, which is the same size gun but has more than double the FP energy of your round, I question your judgement.

.380 is not my preferred caliber. But it's an entirely valid choice. .22 is for little old ladies who can't handle anything else and it beats the Hell out of nothing. There is nothing else good to be said about it.

 

[JackD]

This is an interesting read, real world stats of how effective handgun on stopping BG's
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

Thanks for the link. It puts whole new bright light on this subject. I feel my decision has been vindicated by this comprehensive study.

I quote his concluding lines.

The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

John Hinckley - .22 pistol
Sirhan Sirhan - .22 pistol


Guess it works for some people.

 

[JackD]

EVERY study done on defensive shooting, whether on the LEO or the Civilian side, pretty well shows thge .22 LR as a totally incapable round. You've been replied to by multiple people with this info.



.380 is not my preferred caliber. But it's an entirely valid choice. .22 is for little old ladies who can't handle anything else and it beats the Hell out of nothing.

See post 61 and 69 in this thread and the links.

22 lr defense - Bing Videos

In the post 69 link (repeated below), this study show the .380 and the .22 (including S,L,LR) are actually very similar in performance in actual shootings.

Surprisingly, the little .22 rimfire came in first (in handguns) in the % of hits that were fatal at 34%. Note that accidental and suicides were not included in this study. Only actual combat or defensive shootings.

This study is an eye opener for me. I'll believe what it is telling me, long before I'll believe WAG's or opinions. And what it is telling me is that the .22LR is not all that bad and the .45 or .44 mag is not all that good. In fact, with few exceptions, they are all similar in most actual defense situations.

It points out that the person who choses a .22 is not wrong and neither is the person who choses a .45. It is a matter of personal choice.

I just noticed the link in post 69 is not working anymore, so I'll add it here.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

 

[Ought Six]

The 'study' referenced above was complied by a person with zero forensic medical or statistical analysis training. It is interesting data, but I will stick with actual scientific peer-reviewed studies.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

You will always find examples to support any claims for or against any caliber if you look for them.

If you think a .22 is ineffective, go out in the back yard and shoot yourself in the head with one. Get back with us and let us know how that works out for you.

Try that perfect shot with a mouse gun while a crazy is coming at you with a razor sharp knife

 

[Blitzkrieg]

John Hinckley - .22 pistol
Sirhan Sirhan - .22 pistol


Guess it works for some people.

Reagan survived and he was not attacking anyone

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I find this very hard to believe. I've read before that the .22 was the caliber of choice for Mob assassins doing head shots. One reason given was that it would penetrate going in, but ricochet trying to go out, thus doing more damage.

Real handy when your victim is on their knees and awaiting the inevitable