.22 for SD. My own little study.....for what it's worth.

[Blitzkrieg]

Valid point. and, Yes, I would do what I can....but my actions, being a citizen untrained in combat, could make matters worse. A bigger gun could be a through and through and take out more than I wanted, including the checker or another bystander. A .22LR will likely stop in the attacker, even at close range. I'll take my chances with my little .22LR, and hope that scenario never come to pass.

The .22 LR penetrates as well as most other handgun calibers

 

[JackD]

If you come to my class with a Taurus .22 revolver because that’s the only gun you own and you want to get better with it, I will teach you everything that I know. But when you show up at my class with an expensive gun carried in a bubblegumty holster with $10 gun show magazines, you will be scorned. If you want to talk “ultimate stopping power” the “best” pistol to carry or any other internet commando wannabe bullbubblegum, do it with someone else. I’ve done the work. I’ve found what is an effective solution for me and the majority of my students…now it’s your turn to do the same. I’ll happily share my knowledge and experience, but I’m not going to argue with you about the supremacy of your “Super Blaster 1000″ or your “Uranium Tipped Deluxe Incapacitator” ammunition.

Greg Ellifritz

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Oooh, an expert

 

[mjbskwim]

 

[Ought Six]

If you come to my class with a Taurus .22 revolver because that's the only gun you own and you want to get better with it, I will teach you everything that I know. But when you show up at my class with an expensive gun carried in a bubblegumty holster with $10 gun show magazines, you will be scorned. If you want to talk "ultimate stopping power" the "best" pistol to carry or any other internet commando wannabe bullbubblegum, do it with someone else. I've done the work. I've found what is an effective solution for me and the majority of my students...now it's your turn to do the same. I'll happily share my knowledge and experience, but I'm not going to argue with you about the supremacy of your "Super Blaster 1000″ or your "Uranium Tipped Deluxe Incapacitator" ammunition.

Greg Ellifritz

Yes, we should ignore literally dozens of scientific studies done by major LEO agencies, our military, forensic experts and many others because one guy on the internet with no expertise in the subject whatsoever now has The Answer. And The Answer is that a .22 is just as good as a .45.

 

[Bigfoot]

This thread is silly. Below is a list of all the worlds police and military forces that issue 22LR main sidearms.

 

[mjbskwim]

This thread is silly. Below is a list of all the worlds police and military forces that issue 22LR main sidearms.

You forgot the Masaad.They use the 10/22 ,silenced in the Gaza strip.

 

[Ought Six]

Assassins use the .22LRs because .22LR pistols are small, very easy to shoot, relatively quiet and easier to suppress. When you are walking up to an unsuspecting victim and putting a couple slugs into the back of their head at very close range, such a round is useful. To think that makes it a great self-defense round is obviously faulty 'logic'.

 

[JackD]

To think that makes it a great self-defense round is obviously faulty 'logic'.

Agreed. Problem is, I don't think anyone has said it was "great". I certainly didn't. At best, I said it was adequate for my purposes, most of the time. The two .22's I have are great in some respects and not so great in others. If you can only afford a limited number of firearms, why can't the one you use most often for plinking, target shooting and practice (in short, FUN), also do double duty as a CC weapon, when the occasion permits?

I'm very confused as to why it upsets you so if I, or someone else wants to carry a .22LR. Isn't that better then nothing at all? Most of the time "nothing at all" is what I carry. But that doesn't seem to upset anyone. Occasionally, I carry my .22LR and occasionally, I carry the SP101, depending on the occasion. So what's the problem with that?

 

[JackD]

This thread is silly. Below is a list of all the worlds police and military forces that issue 22LR main sidearms.

Of course you realize that police and military are offensive forces. It is their job to go after the "bad guys" and should be armed to the teeth. Surely you aren't suggesting we should all be dressed in camo and body armor and m16's, etc. to go to the local market? I just can't see myself needing the same protection that the police or military does. But that's just my opinion. You, of course, are welcome to yours.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Reagan survived and he was not attacking anyone

True, but James Brady sure didn't like it. Put him DOWN. No continuing to move, no running towards or away from anyone....he dropped.

Reagan would have died if it hadn't been for excellent surgical care that many people wouldn't have available to them.

I'm not advocating carrying a .22 instead of something else, but it really is better than nothing.

 

[Ought Six]

Agreed. Problem is, I don't think anyone has said it was "great". I certainly didn't. At best, I said it was adequate for my purposes, most of the time. The two .22's I have are great in some respects and not so great in others. If you can only afford a limited number of firearms, why can't the one you use most often for plinking, target shooting and practice (in short, FUN), also do double duty as a CC weapon, when the occasion permits?

I'm very confused as to why it upsets you so if I, or someone else wants to carry a .22LR. Isn't that better then nothing at all? Most of the time "nothing at all" is what I carry. But that doesn't seem to upset anyone. Occasionally, I carry my .22LR and occasionally, I carry the SP101, depending on the occasion. So what's the problem with that?

I already answered this in post #50. At the risk of repeating myself....

I have no problem with people making their own personal choice. But a lot of new shooters come to this board for advice, and when someone says that a .22LR is perfectly fine as your primary defense weapon, I am going to take issue with that. I think that is dangerous advice that could potentially put someone else's life in danger, and I will not be shy about saying so. These kinds of discussions are informative for all of us, and make the board a more useful resource.

 

[JackD]

Yes, we should ignore literally dozens of scientific studies done by major LEO agencies, our military, forensic experts and many others because one guy on the internet with no expertise in the subject whatsoever now has The Answer. And The Answer is that a .22 is just as good as a .45.

Maybe you could list these dozens of studies so we can all have your wisdom. I'd read all of them.

 

[Redcap]

This thread is hilarious.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

True, but James Brady sure didn't like it. Put him DOWN. No continuing to move, no running towards or away from anyone....he dropped.

Reagan would have died if it hadn't been for excellent surgical care that many people wouldn't have available to them.

I'm not advocating carrying a .22 instead of something else, but it really is better than nothing.

So a tiny slug that makes old men who are not aggressive fall down and then survive is a choice for self defence against 300 lb crack heads and meth crazies? I would prefer a stout walking stick

 

[mjbskwim]

I'm very confused as to why it upsets you so if I, or someone else wants to carry a .22LR. Isn't that better then nothing at all? Most of the time "nothing at all" is what I carry. But that doesn't seem to upset anyone. Occasionally, I carry my .22LR and occasionally, I carry the SP101, depending on the occasion. So what's the problem with that?

Sometimes nothing at all is safer for everyone.You shoot a crack head and piss him off,he takes your gun and shoots people like the old assassins did
Walks into a store and shoots people in the back of the head
Because you pissed him off by shooting him with the sub par caliber pistol.

You shoot him with a real caliber and he ,at least for a while,just goes home to nurse his wounds or dies right there.
Not every attacker at the local market will respond to the 22 by just quitting the attack.Some will take offense to you shooting at them.Or you shooting them.

Kinda like when the new guy asks what gun to use and you ask him if he could kill someone.
The reason to ask is because if he can't,the bad guy will take your gun and kill others with it

Same could be true with the 22.Shoot the wrong guy and he is now armed.
Every time we carry,it can have the butterfly effect on everyone around us.

So unless you know you can put all the rounds where they count,a 22 lr isn't the right thing to carry

 

[cpy911]

I will stick with my Shillelagh!

 

[Misterbill]

While 'bigger is better' when it comes to self-defense calibers, a .22 lr pistol in your pocket is better than nothing.

which was never the question or comment posed by JackD. He asserted, ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT ANY BACKING that .22 LR was a solid defensive round. He;'s continued this stupidity to several pages.

No police agency or military in the world uses the .22 LR as a criminal stopper. The .223/5.56 is an entirely different round balistically.

Yes, some bad guys will be stopped by a .22. That same number would stop if threatened with a knife or baseball bat or hammer.

Claiming that some guy with a knife who is perfectly happy to either A: engage in hand-to-hand with the result of you dying or B: able to take whats a relatively minor wound in his desire to take your stuff will be stopped with a .22 LR with any reliable consistency is criminally untrue. Shame on the idiot who started this thread and shame on anyone who says that .22 LR is an effective defensive round. It's not, you can present ZERO evidence that it is and you mislead new shooters who don't know better to rely on a gun that's more likely to get it shoved up their Butts than stopping an attacker.

There is a reason that even the least proactive of police departments in the world use the .380 and the vast majority rely on something 9mm or larger.

If you're bloody stupid enough to think that your .22 is going to stop a dedicated attacker, I can only wish you are in that situation quickly. At least your death at the hands of the guy you shoot three times in the chest with your mousegun will keepthis kind of stupid, mis-informed BS from getting any further further.

 

[JackD]

which was never the question or comment posed by JackD. He asserted, ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT ANY BACKING that .22 LR was a solid defensive round. He;'s continued this stupidity to several pages.

No police agency or military in the world uses the .22 LR as a criminal stopper. The .223/5.56 is an entirely different round balistically.

Yes, some bad guys will be stopped by a .22. That same number would stop if threatened with a knife or baseball bat or hammer.

Claiming that some guy with a knife who is perfectly happy to either A: engage in hand-to-hand with the result of you dying or B: able to take whats a relatively minor wound in his desire to take your stuff will be stopped with a .22 LR with any reliable consistency is criminally untrue. Shame on the idiot who started this thread and shame on anyone who says that .22 LR is an effective defensive round. It's not, you can present ZERO evidence that it is and you mislead new shooters who don't know better to rely on a gun that's more likely to get it shoved up their Butts than stopping an attacker.

There is a reason that even the least proactive of police departments in the world use the .380 and the vast majority rely on something 9mm or larger.

If you're bloody stupid enough to think that your .22 is going to stop a dedicated attacker, I can only wish you are in that situation quickly. At least your death at the hands of the guy you shoot three times in the chest with your mousegun will keepthis kind of stupid, mis-informed BS from getting any further further.

What???? What have you been smoking? I never said anything of the kind. Nor even implied it. All I have ever said is that it was adequate for my purposes. Nothing more. Look back at my original post. Then all the others and point out to me where I asserted or said anything of that kind!

 

[Ought Six]

Maybe you could list these dozens of studies so we can all have your wisdom. I'd read all of them.

Maybe if you were really interested, you could spend about two minutes with Google and find them yourself rather easily. Too much trouble, I guess, since you already feel 'validated'.

Wound Ballistics, Ballistic Injury, Stopping Power, Gunshot Wounds

Thompson-LaGarde

Office of Medical History - WOUND BALLISTICS

1904 Handgun Ammunition Trials

That should be plenty of material to get you started.