.22 for SD. My own little study.....for what it's worth.

[JackD]

So then why not carry a pellet gun? Modern pellet guns can penetrate the rib cage, and apparently stopping power does not matter much; right?

Why not, indeed? Show me one that is as small as the PT22 or Bobcat that holds multiple pellets and fires as fast and maybe I'll consider it.

 

[FortunateSon]

I personally would not carry a .22 as my primary CCW. Backup, maybe.

It isn't my place to judge anyone who does. It is a choice, like most everything else, and if a person feels comfortable carrying a .22 and makes that choice then they can deal with the consequences of that decision. In my opinion, at least a decision was made to defend - which is more than the vast majority of people do.

 

[JackD]

I personally would not carry a .22 as my primary CCW. Backup, maybe.

It isn't my place to judge anyone who does. It is a choice, like most everything else, and if a person feels comfortable carrying a .22 and makes that choice then they can deal with the consequences of that decision. In my opinion, at least a decision was made to defend - which is more than the vast majority of people do.

Thank you, Sir. I couldn't agree more. I respect the opinions of others and try to keep an open mind. I don't understand the insults when one disagrees with anothers opinion. It is not conducive to a good debate.

 

[Mosseman]

If a .22 was effective at stopping a charging threat, why doesn't the military or law enforcement use them. Ive heard of people being shot in the head with a .22 while they are asleep, and waking up thinking they had a head headache. only to find there old lady tried to kill them in their sleep. It doesn't matter how good your aim is if you are ducking and weaving to avoid a assailants weapon. If under attack, you could only have
a fraction of a second, and moving targets are hard to hit. Try practicing with that .22 on moving targets and see how well you do. You might only get one shot on target, it better count. That said, I love shooting my .22's. Cheap to shoot and very accurate.

 

[Misterbill]

The only reason I can think of to carry a .22 or .25 as a self-defense gun is that you are physically incapable of controlling anything larger.

I've watched very frail, arthritic women in their late 80s go from never having shot a gun to doing repeated pairs with a .40 with no issues. So I doubt you have a physical problem that necessitates a gun with so very little stopping power. I teach this stuff for a living and frankly you're kidding yourself.

Taking a self-selected sample like the NRA's statistics is silly. There is nothing remotely scientific about their stories.

If your hand gets sore with a very lightweight gun like the LCR or LCP, I suggest working with that gun firing only 60-70 rounds at a time (try to find lighter loads for practice as well) and then moving to a .22 as a practice gun. Also dry-fire at home a lot. You will find that your marksmanship improves substantially.

That people die from .22 caliber bullets means nothing as to stopping power. Your assailant bleeding out and dying 20 minutes after the event does nothing to help you.

What will stop an attack is an immediate, traumatic shock to the body and/or wounds that interrupt the assailant's major bodily functions. This is why no police agency in the country has ever relied on the .22. The bullet is too small and not properly formed to make the wounds necessary to stop most threats. Betting your life that you can successfully make headshots on a moving target, at night, in the middle of an adrenaline dump is, in my opinion, foolish.

I have a number of .22 pistols and enjoy shooting them. they are fun to shoot and great ways to work on fundamentals for essentially zero cost. they are not designed nor suited for use as a defensive weapon. -BTW, how many times does your rimfire ammo fail? Mine does a lot. Another downside to using a .22 as a defensive gun.

 

[coop44]

funny, I've seen the .22lr lumped together with the .25acp on at least a couple of replies here. In no way that I have seen does this hold true.

you might want to check a few statistics on the 22lr high velocity rounds. Velocity and energy far outstrip the 25 auto, and in some cases come close to the smaller centerfire cartridges suggested for concealed carry.

CCI minimags velocity 1235fps energy 135 ft/lbs

Federal AE25AP velocity 760fps energy 64 ft/lbs

Federal AE380AP velocity 980 energy 203 ft/lbs

Federal AE38B velocity 770 energy 208ft/lbs


(Most cops I have met are good guys but quite weapons stupid, in fact a number of them never touched a gun before deciding on the career.)

most statistics are skewed in favor of the group gathering them.

I rely on personal experience and first hand accounts.

I grew up in Santa Ana CA, the majority of gang gun deaths were with .22's and 380's at one time, they both worked.

personally I do not rely on a .22 at the moment, but given the circumstances I would not hesitate to do so.

A .22 requires a different attitude and technique, careful shot placement and the willingness to walk the gun to a point blank range while firing.

 

[Bigfoot]

most statistics are skewed in favor of the group gathering them.

Yes they are. BTW I noticed that you used rifle velocity for the CCI minimags instead of 1000ish from a pistol.

Just messing with ya. I agree that a 22lr pistol penetrates better than a 25ACP and has a better chance of doing damage. I wouldn't want to depend on either one to save my life.

I have two 22lr pistols and I love them, for practice.

 

[Allfat]

No. Because every bullet comes with a lawyer attached. You never, never, never say your intent was to kill. Especially in print. Everything you say can be used against you. Our class leaned heavily on the law and your responsibilities within that law. Then there's the civil liability. Legally, you can shoot to stop a threat and that is all you can do. And frankly, killing someone is something nobody really wants to live with. When the threat is over, my gun stops firing. Empty or not.

I agree with shooting to stop the threat. However, your logic is flawed. Shooting with a 45 vs shooting with a 22, there is no difference when shooting to stop a threat. Either way, you are using deadly force to defend yourself or the innocent. Caliber does not play a part in the proceedings. I have never heard someone being prosecuted because they used too big of a bullet to defend their lives (correct me if I'm wrong). Whether you shoot with a 22 or a 357, you are still using deadly force that is justified by self defense. Just because you use a 22 does not mean you are in the clear in the eyes of the law.

If you shoot someone unjustified with a 22, you can't argue that there was no real danger to them because you were "only shooting him with a 22." That is ludicrous and, frankly, dangerous to be thinking that way. You should carry what you are comfortable with, but even with a 22, you are carrying a deadly weapon that should only be used in the gravest of circumstances.

 

[tattoo]

I choose to make the most damage with the fewest rounds I can. I may only be able to get 1 off. So its 45acp for me.
Dave

 

[Ought Six]

I personally would not carry a .22 as my primary CCW. Backup, maybe.

It isn't my place to judge anyone who does. It is a choice, like most everything else, and if a person feels comfortable carrying a .22 and makes that choice then they can deal with the consequences of that decision. In my opinion, at least a decision was made to defend - which is more than the vast majority of people do.

I have no problem with people making their own personal choice. But a lot of new shooters come to this board for advice, and when someone says that a .22LR is perfectly fine as your primary defense weapon, I am going to take issue with that. I think that is dangerous advice that could potentially put someone else's life in danger, and I will not be shy about saying so. These kinds of discussions are informative for all of us, and make the board a more useful resource.

 

[JackD]

I have no problem with people making their own personal choice. But a lot of new shooters come to this board for advice, and when someone says that a .22LR is perfectly fine as your primary defense weapon, I am going to take issue with that. I think that is dangerous advice that could potentially put someone else's life in danger, and I will not be shy about saying so. These kinds of discussions are informative for all of us, and make the board a more useful resource.

Funny. I never asked anyone to do what I did. It was my choice to make and I never said it was perfectly fine. I'm comfortable with my decision. I didn't give any advice....NONE.

I was just curious about the data found in "The Armed Citizen" and put it in a chart and posted it for all to see. It is a debate worth having, and there are a lot of opinions, both pro and con. I value your opinion as well as any others, and try to keep an open mind. We're all capable of making our own decisions. Condecending remarks should not be a part of the discussion. Everyones opinion should hold equal weight. And their decisions as to what gun to carry is a personal one and should not affect anyone else. I've done a lot of research into the subject and I didn't take my decision lightly. A bit is posted here. There are many articles written on the subject and several video tests on Youtube for anyone contemplating a .22 LR for CC to do their own research.

I doubt anyone made a decision to carry a .22LR based on my decision. People usually make those kinds of decisions based on their own research and opinions. I just added a little food for thought.

I'd love to see a LCR Convertible .22LR/.22WMR. That would be the cat's meow. (IMO)

 

[JackD]

I agree with shooting to stop the threat. However, your logic is flawed. Shooting with a 45 vs shooting with a 22, there is no difference when shooting to stop a threat. Either way, you are using deadly force to defend yourself or the innocent. Caliber does not play a part in the proceedings. I have never heard someone being prosecuted because they used too big of a bullet to defend their lives (correct me if I'm wrong). Whether you shoot with a 22 or a 357, you are still using deadly force that is justified by self defense. Just because you use a 22 does not mean you are in the clear in the eyes of the law.

If you shoot someone unjustified with a 22, you can't argue that there was no real danger to them because you were "only shooting him with a 22." That is ludicrous and, frankly, dangerous to be thinking that way. You should carry what you are comfortable with, but even with a 22, you are carrying a deadly weapon that should only be used in the gravest of circumstances.

You need to go back further. You missed the whole point and are out of context.

 

[mjbskwim]

It's OK with me that you want to discount all I have said and not see what I am really saying.
Not a problem,had worse responses on here

When you are being rushed by a large, enraged assailant, and there is a ton of adrenaline pumping through your veins, I wonder how precise your shot placement would be then?

Pretty good since I have pretty good situational awareness and don't let myself get into situations where freaks are too close to me
And the three 22 pistols I have will put all the shots in a very small area,easily.
But that is only 10 shots of 22,which I have said I wouldn't use in bad areas.And have stated that I went to 45 some place,no?


----------No, that the average for LEO encounters with criminals. It has nothing to do with civilian encounters with criminals. And carrying something that would only be adequate in an average encounter would be a very bad strategy.

Hmmm.used to be the statistic for ALL shootings,must have changed but I don't have the statistics and I see you didn't post them either.So I'll keep with that figure.
Which really doesn't matter,anyway.A friend's partner was killed by one 22 mag shot and another friend's neighbor was killed with 14 9mm rounds.

----------You simply cannot say any handgun will stop the threat. They are not magic death rays. Even a .45 is not going to be 100% effective with good shot placement. The best you can do is to shift the odds to your side as much as possible. Carrying a .22 shift the odds in favor of the bad guys.

Man,thank you Captain Obvious!!
Do I need to say anything else? These are all things I have read 100 times in the past also.

----------If you seriously think that you are going to be able to score "a few head shots" when being rushed by an assailant, with all due respect, you are a bit delusional.

Could be.Don't expect to.
Oh I said "You may be able to stop the electricity with a few head shots."
"MAY"
Not delusional,actually stating it COULD be POSSIBLE.Don't see anywhere,were I said it was a good strategy.But if you are going to carry a 22,which I have stated that I don't believe is the perfect caliber to carry,you had better shoot for either the head or the heart to make it work. Maybe the crotch to bleed them out?

----------Again, carry the most powerful handgun you can conceal and shoot well.

Captain Obvious comes to mind again

----------Once again, assuming that a tiny caliber is okay in some neighborhoods is ridiculous. If you are in a situation where you must draw and fire your weapon, you are in a fight for your very life. To say a weapon with so little stopping power is okay just because it is a nicer neighborhood is completely nonsensical.

First I don't believe words like nonsensical or supposed to be used on this site.
Moderators?
I never ASSume anything. You use them thar big words and don't even read what you are responding to
"In my neighborhood,a 22 may be OK"
You will notice the words "may" and "OK" not IS or PERFECT.
Now what we have up here in town are mainly just drunks and a few loosers for street people.The bad guys do understand most are armed in this area.
The average age must be close to my age (54) or older,and any old lady you want to attack,probably will shoot you.Hence,a 22 would thwart most of the dumb asses around here.
But again,as I have stated,I don't believe a 22 is a viable caliber for self defence.
Which is why I carry a 1911 in 45 ACP now.
Not my G19 or my ruger 357,my 1911 in 45 ACP.

BUT......if your physical make up does not allow you the ability to handle any more than a 22lr or magnum,then become very proficient with the gun and understand it's limits and capabilities

A gun that scares you or is too heavy for you will do you no good.Not as much good as a 22 that you can shoot perfectly most every time

 

[Vantage]

Some additional fuel for the conversation.

Very good info on the use of the .22lr for personal defense.

Ask Foghorn: Is .22lr The Best for Self Defense? | | The Truth About GunsThe Truth About Guns

and a good video by one of my favorite YouTuber's on .22lr penetration from a ruger SR22 .22lr pistol

.22 Handgun for Self-Defense? CCI 40 gr Mini-Mag Test - YouTube

And here's a video of a man shot multiple times in the chest (in the 9" circle that we all practice on) from close range and still continues to fight with multiple cops. I don't know what caliber it is he is shot with, but I would assume it's somewhere between 9mm to .45 as those are the standard issue calibers.

This cop gets shot point blank in the face. And not a glancing blow either... he was shot between the nose and his upper lip, and lived.

For me... bottom line is that the overwhelming majority of Defensive Gun Uses never involve actually involve shooting a person. Simply having a gun is the issue. So I'm ok with carrying a smaller piece.

However... Other than maybe a derringer 2 shot pistol, you can get a larger caliber for the same size and weight as a .22lr gun. So I just don't see the reasoning regarding convenience of carry. . Kel Tec PF9 is like 15 ouces, is super skinny and holds 6 +1, The Kahr PM series is the same. S&W makes 10 ounce revolvers. I'll concede that having any gun on is will probably do it. But for the same size and weight you can carry a larger caliber.

 

[mjbskwim]

A lot of good stuff there on Foghorn's link,thanks But as he says ,there could be a ton of factors that sway the results of the studies.
The double tap theory,how far away were the 22 shots from? or any of the shots for that matter
I would guess a guy would be more confident shooting at greater distances with a larger caliber and maybe shooting at very close encounters with the 22.
But that's my theory.
The 22's are smaller and most won't be afraid of the recoil,again giving some confidence to shooting the gun.

Lots to look at
Like my last post said,a friend had his police partner shot dead with 1 22mag round,then there was the police/FBI study on the shooting where the guy took 21 rounds? of 40S&W Speer gold dot and they had to shoot him with the AR to kill him.

'Bout the only thing that is given,well almost,is a shot gun does the job best.

So a shot gun instead of the 22?

 

[JonnyS]

In my experience, most people that claim that the .22 lr is useless for self-defense have never seen or experienced firsthand the damage a .22 lr (or any other round) can do to a human body.

While 'bigger is better' when it comes to self-defense calibers, a .22 lr pistol in your pocket is better than nothing.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

In my experience, most people that claim that the .22 lr is useless for self-defense have never seen or experienced firsthand the damage a .22 lr (or any other round) can do to a human body.

While 'bigger is better' when it comes to self-defense calibers, a .22 lr pistol in your pocket is better than nothing.

Most people who think the .22 LR is a manstopper are not hunters. I have seen a huge jackrabbit gut shot with a .303 British FMJ who survived and screamed and had to be shot in the head to kill the poor thing. I was the one who fired both shots and I have little faith in mouseguns to stop a real threat. The .303 is one of the best main battle rifle calibers ever to exist, BTW

 

[Blitzkrieg]

No. Because every bullet comes with a lawyer attached. You never, never, never say your intent was to kill. Especially in print. Everything you say can be used against you. Our class leaned heavily on the law and your responsibilities within that law. Then there's the civil liability. Legally, you can shoot to stop a threat and that is all you can do. And frankly, killing someone is something nobody really wants to live with. When the threat is over, my gun stops firing. Empty or not.

Intent to stop means you have enough sense to carry a serious fighting caliber. There is also the aspect that a survivor of an attack on you can more readily sue you

 

[Blitzkrieg]

What's your source for that little bit of info? Everything I've read says the opposite. My own little study, even though limited, shows that 55% fled the scene when a gun was produced and no mention of any of them stopping to ask what caliber the gun was. Also in my little study, of those known to have faced a .25, or a .22LR, 4 fled and two died on the scene. I include the .25 since it is similar in power to the .22. Of those shot with the .22, none survived to continue the attack.

Sanow and Marshall, thousands of real world shootings studied from around the world. Anyone who knows anything about the subject knows what I am referring to

Tell you what, pup, I will link two items and you get back to us.. this will determine how caliber delusional you are

<broken link removed>

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

 

[Wildcat]

Boy! Did you ever open a can of worms, JackD