1911 .45 Choices

[Joe Link]

but then what do I know... I'm a Glock shooter.

Lots

 

[wichaka]

As always, you get what you pay for.

Read some of the posts here and on other forum boards........what's some of the things you read being posted when a person looks or buys a new gun?
"It felt good in my hands" "Loved the looks" "It pointed good for me" 'Liked the feel and heft" "Slide racked like butter" etc., you get the idea.

When was the last time you heard anyone who really looked under the hood? Took it apart, checked the barrel upper/lower lugs? See what/how the process the parts are made, and are made of? Looked at the machining, looked over the fit and finish of what's really important on a gun, the firing control group etc.
I know not everyone would have the know-how to do that, or what to look for.......which is my point exactly........you shouldn't have to do/know that. When you plunk down a grand for a gun, it should already be included in the package, but sadly is not.

Yes, anything can malfunction.........but have seen a lot more Kimbers fail than others.
And yes I'm aware that Kimber puts out more 1911's than other, and if one were take the amount of Kimbers out there to other brands would the amount of failures per 1,000 guns be the same........etc., etc.

Have also seen a lot of Glocks fail at the academy too, more so than other guns. Pins, springs, and various other small parts breaking on them, at a disproportionate rate. Talking to the Glock reps, they recommend changing out the pins, springs, and some small parts about every year or so, depending on your round count.

Even Para's reps have told me their quality is slipping, and are in the process of moving the company to the states for better QC. Not sure how moving the company equates to better QC, but I hope they get things figured out.

Sig's GSR & C3 1911's were/are a disaster for quality, even after the owners sent them back to have them repaired. They came back and still wouldn't run, and have had several on the bench to fix things that Sig couldn't........or I should say......didn't.

Hey I'm not complaining any, I'm making money from manufacturers so called "High Quality" products!

I don't speak from third party info., or the.......I heard it from a friend, who's brother's Uncle's wife's...........you get the idea.
I get my info. first hand, from the other armorers themselves, and other professionals in the industry.......such as Larry Vickers, Tim Lau, and Hilton Yam. And ch139, I chat with Larry every once in awhile.........

My opinion based on most production guns I see coming out is that they are pretty much junk. You know kinda like the throw-away society, people say we've become.
They are made for the average shooter.....that is the one that keeps them in a safe, goes to the range now and then, then back in the safe they go.

Guns these days are not for the high round count shooter. Sure you'll find some that will go a long time, but mostly not without some kind of tuning, parts upgrade for reliability and longevity.
With cheap manufacturing processes, inferior metals being used on some parts etc., it all adds up.

With all that said........there's only 2 1911's I would recommend at this point.

1) Colt......all steel, no inferior parts making process, or materials.
Yes, they are a bit more spendy, for what folks thinks is less of a gun compared to others. But don't let the manufacturers bells & whistles fool you. There is a reason why a Wilson, Les Baer, and Ed Browns are spendy. And there's a reason why guns that look like Wilsons, Baers, and Browns are not. To keep the cost down, there's corners cut somewhere.
Buy a car with the fancy paint and leather interior, but fail to look under the hood, and at the running gear, and see how far it'll get you.

2) Springfield........yes, the frames are made at the Imbel plant in Brazil, but then some of the FAL receivers and others are made there as well.
Their small parts are mostly cheap MIM stuff, but don't seem to break like Kimber stuff does. And contrary to popular belief, Kimber does not make all their small parts in house. So my guess is that Kimber needs to look at their supplier, for the lack of QC of their parts.
Don't worry about the 2 piece barrels in Springfields. Accuracy is 80% fit and 20% barrel quality.......at the distances you're likely to be involved in a combat situation.

Folks can flame me all they want about always recommending guns, items that cost more..........but I'll never recommend anything to anyone on this forum that I wouldn't use. So as the saying goes......."I'd rather explain the price of quality, than have to apologize for something less."
Whatever gun or item you're looking for, I'm sure some other country will copy/make it soon enough using sub par materials and provide it cheaper than quality companies can, to an American society hungry for cheap products.

Be well.......

 

[Ocanada]

On the order of the 1911s... Over the years I've owned a bunch of Colts, a few Springfields (SAI) and one of those silly Canuck P13s. :winkkiss:

I've played with and shot just about every other flavor out there.

Have been fortunate to have met and known some great gunsmiths and a metallurgical engineer in the industry and heard their opinions on the matter.

So here is where I come down. Colt. They're steel is first rate and made in the USA. In an effort to remain competitive with their prices they started putting things like plastic back straps in their guns and are pretty much a no-frills gun. My first choice.

Springfield also has a lot of good steel, but the forgings are imported. Also uses two-piece barrels. My second choice.

...and that's it.

Kimber's steel is very hard to the point of being brittle. Para Ordnance hardness is inconsistent.

Couple questions to keep in mind. Why is it that some 1911s have more bells and whistles than others at the same price point (what corners were cut)? Why do all the best custom builders use only Colt and Springfield?

I'd recommend you find a good used Colt or Springfield to scratch your itch, but then what do I know... I'm a Glock shooter.

Thanks for your input. I saw the S.W.A.T. article, and Vickers makes some valid points. And, shamefully, I too am a Glock shooter. Actually, I enjoy them, and my Sigs, and now a S&W M&P .45. Although I tend to take my revolvers out more and more these days.

I guess it was the thought of getting a nice 1911 that started the ball rolling. I am planning on a gun hunting trip locally in the next few days to see what there is out there. I am lucky enough to have a distributor close by and a couple of good gun shops to look in. We will see what happens.

Peter

 

[s_ribs]

Wow... Wichaca, thank you for that! It's great to have a good knowledge base on the forum for us all.

 

[coctailer]

As always, you get what you pay for.

Read some of the posts here and on other forum boards........what's some of the things you read being posted when a person looks or buys a new gun?
"It felt good in my hands" "Loved the looks" "It pointed good for me" 'Liked the feel and heft" "Slide racked like butter" etc., you get the idea.

When was the last time you heard anyone who really looked under the hood? Took it apart, checked the barrel upper/lower lugs? See what/how the process the parts are made, and are made of? Looked at the machining, looked over the fit and finish of what's really important on a gun, the firing control group etc.
I know not everyone would have the know-how to do that, or what to look for.......which is my point exactly........you shouldn't have to do/know that. When you plunk down a grand for a gun, it should already be included in the package, but sadly is not.

Yes, anything can malfunction.........but have seen a lot more Kimbers fail than others.
And yes I'm aware that Kimber puts out more 1911's than other, and if one were take the amount of Kimbers out there to other brands would the amount of failures per 1,000 guns be the same........etc., etc.

Have also seen a lot of Glocks fail at the academy too, more so than other guns. Pins, springs, and various other small parts breaking on them, at a disproportionate rate. Talking to the Glock reps, they recommend changing out the pins, springs, and some small parts about every year or so, depending on your round count.

Even Para's reps have told me their quality is slipping, and are in the process of moving the company to the states for better QC. Not sure how moving the company equates to better QC, but I hope they get things figured out.

Sig's GSR & C3 1911's were/are a disaster for quality, even after the owners sent them back to have them repaired. They came back and still wouldn't run, and have had several on the bench to fix things that Sig couldn't........or I should say......didn't.

Hey I'm not complaining any, I'm making money from manufacturers so called "High Quality" products!

I don't speak from third party info., or the.......I heard it from a friend, who's brother's Uncle's wife's...........you get the idea.
I get my info. first hand, from the other armorers themselves, and other professionals in the industry.......such as Larry Vickers, Tim Lau, and Hilton Yam. And ch139, I chat with Larry every once in awhile.........

My opinion based on most production guns I see coming out is that they are pretty much junk. You know kinda like the throw-away society, people say we've become.
They are made for the average shooter.....that is the one that keeps them in a safe, goes to the range now and then, then back in the safe they go.

Guns these days are not for the high round count shooter. Sure you'll find some that will go a long time, but mostly not without some kind of tuning, parts upgrade for reliability and longevity.
With cheap manufacturing processes, inferior metals being used on some parts etc., it all adds up.

With all that said........there's only 2 1911's I would recommend at this point.

1) Colt......all steel, no inferior parts making process, or materials.
Yes, they are a bit more spendy, for what folks thinks is less of a gun compared to others. But don't let the manufacturers bells & whistles fool you. There is a reason why a Wilson, Les Baer, and Ed Browns are spendy. And there's a reason why guns that look like Wilsons, Baers, and Browns are not. To keep the cost down, there's corners cut somewhere.
Buy a car with the fancy paint and leather interior, but fail to look under the hood, and at the running gear, and see how far it'll get you.

2) Springfield........yes, the frames are made at the Imbel plant in Brazil, but then some of the FAL receivers and others are made there as well.
Their small parts are mostly cheap MIM stuff, but don't seem to break like Kimber stuff does. And contrary to popular belief, Kimber does not make all their small parts in house. So my guess is that Kimber needs to look at their supplier, for the lack of QC of their parts.
Don't worry about the 2 piece barrels in Springfields. Accuracy is 80% fit and 20% barrel quality.......at the distances you're likely to be involved in a combat situation.

Folks can flame me all they want about always recommending guns, items that cost more..........but I'll never recommend anything to anyone on this forum that I wouldn't use. So as the saying goes......."I'd rather explain the price of quality, than have to apologize for something less."
Whatever gun or item you're looking for, I'm sure some other country will copy/make it soon enough using sub par materials and provide it cheaper than quality companies can, to an American society hungry for cheap products.

Be well.......

Do you have any experience on the Dan Wesson PM7?

It's about the same price as Colt

 

[chakup]

I'm a Springfield, but the Dan Wesson's have gotten some good reviews by folks much smarter then me on another board I'm on.

 

[coctailer]

Good to see ya here Chakup!!!

I have read the reviews on ARFKOM and I have had experience with the DW revolvers.

The ones I looked at at Shot Show seemed very nice.

 

[chakup]

There a few guys on OT that really like them!

and yeah found my way over here as well

 

[wichaka]

Do you have any experience on the Dan Wesson PM7?

It's about the same price as Colt

I have not looked under the hood......but have heard pretty good things, thatt all their parts like Colt are solid steel. Which I'm sure is the reason for the higher price tag.

 

[coctailer]

I have not looked under the hood......but have heard pretty good things, thatt all their parts like Colt are solid steel. Which I'm sure is the reason for the higher price tag.

I am currently looking for a 1911 for competition. The DW is at the top of the list with Colt.

 

[chakup]

OK all hijacked from another forum:

Fired my 1 thousandth round on my PM7 this weekend. After a marathon break in, I've now competed 3 times with it. This past weekend in an event of 75 shooters, 25 that shot in CDP (custom Defensive Pistols) which is the division I shoot in now it's for all of the 1911 .45 shooters, I took 5th place overall beating out some OG sharpshooters.

The gun NEVER skipped a beat. And I shot it twice in pouring down rain, dropping multiple mags in the mud and wet sand, it never let me down. While engaging a target while retreating backwards from 15 yards I formed a clover leaf of 3 shots on one of my targets with a triple tap.

After 4 different bullet recipes tried, I found it shot best with Rainier Ballistics 200 grain Flat Point/Hollow Point, backed by 4.9 grains of TiteGroup and Winchester Primers. with an OAL of 1.22".
Fed from my Blued Shooting Star 8 round mags, of multiple reloads, dropping mags in less than ideal conditions I never experienced a single malfunction.

Verdict=SEX

Shot some footage from this weekends USPSA match. Ran my Dan Wesson PM7 in Limited 10 running Wilson 10 rounders. Was a pretty nice day for it being September in the great Northwet.

Enjoy...

me:

My buddy Cel, 07' C Class Area 1 champ:

Been reading about it a lot for the last few days and it seems like a better choice than the CBOB I was eyeing. Itll be used as a range gun and HD so a commander sized frame didnt make sense. That and the Valor has a black coating (among other things) which would add to the cost if I wanted it done to the CBOB. The CBOB I handled had an amazing trigger. No take up at all and it was breaking like glass. The PM7 they had was kind of the opposite. There was some creep and wobble to it.

My dealer is calling CZ tomorrow to see if they have any in stock. Right now I have a gun on consignment so im putting all the money from that to the Valor. Also im selling them a case of 5.45 rounds to bring the balance down even more.

Here's one guy's opinion of Dan Wesson Valor vs Springfield TRP.
<broken link removed>

One sexy sum*****.

Yeah that's a nice gun up there!

It shoots circles around my cousins Custom Gold Match for almost half the cost. And in the 8 competitive matches I've entered it in, I've placed 3rd a few times with a strong crowd of Expert shooters and better, not bad for a new gun that's barely got 2k rounds on it.

I bought the PM7 for $840 and spent the money where it should be spent with a very respectable and competent local 1911 gunsmith and quality select parts. When faced against competitors armed with $3k 1911's, I don't feel undergunned at all. And it's still less than the Kimber.

With the money saved, this is what I spend my coinage on...


(ammo, **** load of ammo)

You ask anyone competent / accomplished shooter, it's better than any little trinket you can hang on your pistol, guaranteed. My gun is a pretty gun killer.

Still doing to it, I'm waiting to get my "back up" 1911 up to snuff so I can send this out again as that is currently out.

- S&A Magwell w/ curved MSH blended
- Infinity Trigger
- Competition 2lb trigger w/ Ed brown parts
- Wilson Ext Mag release
- Wilson Ext Slide release
- Dawson Front Fiber Optic
- Ed Brown Ambi thumb Safety "Wides"
- Larry Davidson Mircata Grips, Magwell/ Ambi cut w/ recessed mag release slot.

Still deciding on wether or not I want a DK hammer, or keep my Ed Brown hammer.

Gear:

Safariland 012 Holster
CR Speed mag holders

 

[chakup]

One more for ya:

So I'm just about to get my teeth cleaned this afternoon, when my phone rings, luckily I checked it before hitting the ignore button as I usually do, good thing because it was a call I've been waiting for for 2 months.

"Hey Ari, your guns done..."

Making haste as I leave my dentists office, I lay rubber to road, and before I could get all the excess fluoride grit from my teeth I'm at JPL's.

Me and John chew the fat for a sec, look over the pistol as he breaks down his work. I cut him a check, and I'm gone to beat traffic.

Twas like highschool all over again. During the ride home I couldn't keep my hands off of her, every other light I had my finger in her. :mamoru:

time for a marathon "get to know" range practice session tonight to get acclimated with the new trigger.

The work is hard to capture as it was all internal. overall, I'm tickled. but the true test is several thousand rounds of ejected brass pending. What I had done was the handfitting and adjustment of the trigger and safety portion of the gun.

Break down of the completed gun:

Dan Wesson Point Man 7 .45 acp

-Wilson Combat Extended mag release
-Wilson Combat Extended slide release
-Ed Brown Ambi Safety Wides
-Ed Brown Memory Groove BT Safety
-Ed Brown Firing Pin
-Ed Brown FP Block
-Ed Brown Extractor
-Ed Brown Ejector
-Ed Brown bushing
-Ed Brown FLGR
-ISMI 12lb Recoil
-ISMI 17lb Main spring
-Smith and Alexander Arched MS & magwell
-Dawson .100 Fiber Optic Front sight
-LPA Adjustable Rears
-Cylinder and Slide Ultra Light Trigger group set to 2lbs
-C&S disconnector
-C&S sear
-C&S sear spring
-C&S Ultra Light Hammer
-SVI Infinity Trigger w/ Benos insert
-Larry Davidson Horned Lizard grips

Stick a knife in her!







seemed like yesterday didn't it?





Single Stack match, here I come!

 

[coctailer]

That is part of the reason I want one.

The author is a member of this forum.

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=691

 

[chakup]

ahhh! didn't know that! Learn something everyday!!

 

[borrowedsig]

I dont care what anyone says about the SiG and its reliability. Its still the sexiest .45 ever.

Haha except maybe that one....

Matt

 

[coctailer]

Deleted

 

[Ocanada]

Thanks for the info on the Dan Wessons. Great pics. There are some coming into a dealer locally I have been told. I will check them out when I do my hunting around for 1911s.

Peter

 

[sweetbeard]

I will have to BigITup Ali G style to the Springfield crowd..

 

[orchemo]

I had a Kimber, I have a Dan Wesson CBOB

Not my gun but good pictures.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=150997