'Zero tolerance' v. Montana - UPDATED!!!!!

[pokerace]

that the Federal Law specifically exempts firearms locked in a vehicle on school property. So there was NO "serious gun crime" committed.
When I go to my grandsons school I leave my gun, ammo, knives, and even my nail clippers hidden and in my locked van. That way I'm in compliance with state and federal laws, just as Ms. DeReu was.

Thanks I was going to hit him with about the same thing,only a little harsher.

 

[Riot]

that the Federal Law specifically exempts firearms locked in a vehicle on school property. So there was NO "serious gun crime" committed.
When I go to my grandsons school I leave my gun, ammo, knives, and even my nail clippers hidden and in my locked van. That way I'm in compliance with state and federal laws, just as Ms. DeReu was.

So you're saying that because of this law the school cannot punish the student in any way, right? I'm not talking about criminal charges here. I'm asking if you truly believe that the school cannot expell her (or place other punishments such as a suspension or detention) for brining a firearm on school property (which I'm sure is a school policy, by the way), regardless if it is locked in their vehicle or not.

Obviously you, as a visitor, can only be asked to leave if they find you are not in compliance with school policy but not breaking any laws. Students, on the other hand, are subjected to different standards of conduct because they are in a public learning environment. Students can be punished for wearing a specific color of clothing if it is in school policy.

Although I am an advocate for gun rights, I hate to see it when people try to impose their own personal beliefs on an individual or organization and tell them how they need to be running things. Waffle House, for example, doesn't allow any firearms in any of their establishments. Period. If I were to carry concealed in a business that was clearly marked "No Firearms Allowed" on the entrance and I was caught carrying- regardless of my 2nd Amendment rights, I have just broken a law.

Do I like it? No...I think it's stupid like most of you in this forum. But do I think that the business should have the right to do so? ABSOLUTLY! If you guys don't like the rules and policies of the schools- then HOME SCHOOL YOUR KIDS!

 

[eriknemily]

So you're saying that because of this law the school cannot punish the student in any way, right? I'm not talking about criminal charges here. I'm asking if you truly believe that the school cannot expell her (or place other punishments such as a suspension or detention) for brining a firearm on school property (which I'm sure is a school policy, by the way), regardless if it is locked in their vehicle or not.

Obviously you, as a visitor, can only be asked to leave if they find you are not in compliance with school policy but not breaking any laws. Students, on the other hand, are subjected to different standards of conduct because they are in a public learning environment. Students can be punished for wearing a specific color of clothing if it is in school policy.

Although I am an advocate for gun rights, I hate to see it when people try to impose their own personal beliefs on an individual or organization and tell them how they need to be running things. Waffle House, for example, doesn't allow any firearms in any of their establishments. Period. If I were to carry concealed in a business that was clearly marked "No Firearms Allowed" on the entrance and I was caught carrying- regardless of my 2nd Amendment rights, I have just broken a law.

Do I like it? No...I think it's stupid like most of you in this forum. But do I think that the business should have the right to do so? ABSOLUTLY! If you guys don't like the rules and policies of the schools- then HOME SCHOOL YOUR KIDS!

Once again I agree with your sentiments except for one thing. I believe there is a big difference between a privately owned business and a publicly funded organization. A business could disallow someone from entering their establishment just because they have the wrong kind of clothes on. A public agency should be shouldn't have the same leeway.
However, with students I think schools can have more stringent policies almost like an employee handbook so to speak. So while this girl cannot be prosecuted since she broke no laws, she is still at the mercy of the school officials because she did violate school policy, albeit unintentionally.

 

[phathom]

If I were to carry concealed in a business that was clearly marked "No Firearms Allowed" on the entrance and I was caught carrying- regardless of my 2nd Amendment rights, I have just broken a law.

Incorrect. You have broken their personal rules for their property. If they ask you to leave you must, if you don't and they trespass you and you still don't leave then you are breaking the law.

This is true whether you are carrying a firearm or whether they have a sign or not. The worst they can do is trespass you and you must leave and not come back without getting that cleared up with them first.

I have had to trespass someone on my property before, we were asking him to leave, this was the 2nd time he had come back, but left before the cops came the first time. The cops got there while he was still there, this was about 15 minutes later where he wouldn't leave, they arrested him for trespassing and got him on a couple other warrants he had.

So from my experience, if someone asks you to leave, you leave, or clear up whatever it is why they are asking you to leave. If they say they're trespassing you or calling the police to trespass you, you leave then, and you are breaking the laws for trespassing, if you committed a crime, that is added to the trespassing charge and the police are likely to track you down for that versus the trespassing charge as you are not at the place anymore and not trespassing then.

Disobeying what the property owner says (even carrying a gun onto their property) is not breaking the law, not leaving for whatever reason they give you when they say they are going to trespass you is.

 

[MA Duce]

Nice to see a victory for common sense and justice.

 

[Riot]

*snip*
So while this girl cannot be prosecuted since she broke no laws...

Need to read 18 USC Section 922 (Unlawful Acts)

(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.
(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

So basically you must be a cop or have the gun for school purposes (like a skeet shooting club) to ever have it allowed on school property. Nevertheless, some states do have exceptions- such as a parent picking up their child or dropping them off- allowing the firearm to remain in the vehicle.



This female doesn't fall under any of these exemptions, therefore she falls under The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990.

So, now that we've got the legal part out of the way. Did she mess up? Yes. Did she own up to it? Yes. Luckily she got a break...she was honest and her acedemics were weighed as a determining factor- not whether or not she did anything wrong.

I admit, it was an honest mistake and I'm actally glad about the outcome, but not for the reasoning behind it. I think that labeling any area a "Gun Free Zone" is retarded. However, these are our laws. Arguing with a superintendant for enforcing a mandatory school policy is like me complaining to the meter-maid for writting me a ticket when I didn't put in enough quarters. You're shooting the enforcer when you should be attacking the source of the problem; our legislators and representatives.

 

[eriknemily]

Need to read 18 USC Section 922 (Unlawful Acts)

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a
firearm -
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do
so by the State in which the school zone is located or a
political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or
political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains
such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or
political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified
under law to receive the license;
(iii) that is -
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is
on a motor vehicle;
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school
in the school zone;
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into
between a school in the school zone and the individual or an
employer of the individual;
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official
capacity; or
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while
traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to
public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school
premises is authorized by school authorities


(emphasis mine (I've always wanted to say that ))

So basically you must be a cop or have the gun for school purposes (like a skeet shooting club) to ever have it allowed on school property. Nevertheless, some states do have exceptions- such as a parent picking up their child or dropping them off- allowing the firearm to remain in the vehicle.

Didn't the report say that she had the rifle in the trunk of her car? That counts as a locked container right? And assuming she's been proper care and transportation of firearms then it was also likely to be unloaded. That appears to be one of the exemptions to subsection A.

 

[phathom]

Need to read 18 USC Section 922 (Unlawful Acts)

So basically you must be a cop or have the gun for school purposes (like a skeet shooting club) to ever have it allowed on school property. Nevertheless, some states do have exceptions- such as a parent picking up their child or dropping them off- allowing the firearm to remain in the vehicle.

This female doesn't fall under any of these exemptions, therefore she falls under The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990.

I think you misread it. These things can be tricky to read and understand.
I separated it to make it easier to read. The double lines are separating the reasons how it does not apply, and there are 3 conditions in which it doesn't, (i,ii,and iii) iii says it is an exception if anyone of the items listed under it are met.

(B) Subparagraph:
(A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(iii) that is—
(I) not loaded; and
(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
or
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

So from here it says, that you can possess it if....
1: If it's not actually part of the schoolgrounds and is private property such as a neighbors lawn or private forest, etc. next to the school.
2: You have a CHL for the state where the school is located
3: It's not loaded and in a locked container in a vehicle.
4: You are using it in a school approved program like ROTC or a trapshooting club
5: You are a LEO
6: You have to go through the school to get to the woods to go hunting if it is unloaded AND the school approves it.


So from that, if it was unloaded and locked in a guncase in her car, she broke no laws. However, if it was just laying out on her backseat/truck bed, etc. Then she would have broken that law.

Didn't the report say that she had the rifle in the trunk of her car? That counts as a locked container right? And assuming she's been proper care and transportation of firearms then it was also likely to be unloaded. That appears to be one of the exemptions to subsection A.

Yes you are correct, if it is in the trunk of her car, that is a "locked container" within the motor vehicle and if it was unloaded she does meet that exception.

 

[Riot]

Looks like you guys got me on this one (rather I outed myself more than anything). Then why does any school freak out about any gun in any trunk? If 18 USC Sec. 22 has that exception, then how can the school even attempt to punish her? Wouldn't this be more ammo for her side then and a possible lawsuit against them?

I'll admit when I'm wrong...I skimmed over about a dozen USC codes until I found this, copied and pasted it on my 30min lunch brake.

So- my bad.

 

[twoclones]

I think it's stupid like most of you in this forum.

LOL. Now you could have structured that sentence a little more carefully

 

[phathom]

Looks like you guys got me on this one (rather I outed myself more than anything). Then why does any school freak out about any gun in any trunk? If 18 USC Sec. 22 has that exception, then how can the school even attempt to punish her? Wouldn't this be more ammo for her side then and a possible lawsuit against them?

I'll admit when I'm wrong...I skimmed over about a dozen USC codes until I found this, copied and pasted it on my 30min lunch brake.

So- my bad.

No worries, those things are made intentionally hard to read so common people are allowed to read it, but not necessarily understand it so we just have to take their word for it of what is and is not legal.

It takes some practice to get them right and time reading it, skimming will always leave you missing stuff.
The only reason I can read them for the most part is just because I did real estate and had to deal with a lot of statutes like that in order to do business and deal with people, when I first started it made my head want to explode.

I think they did what they did in order to make an example of her, I'm surprised though since Montana is considerably pro gun.

 

[Mark W.]

How the **** does a school know if there is a firearm in a locked trunk?

 

[phathom]

How the **** does a school know if there is a firearm in a locked trunk?

Because she played by the honor system and told them.

I'm all for the don't ask, don't tell policy myself.

 

[eriknemily]

Because she played by the honor system and told them.

I'm all for the don't ask, don't tell policy myself.

The girl told the school admin because she knew they were going to the gun sniffing dog running through the parking lot.

 

[phathom]

The girl told the school admin because she knew they were going to the gun sniffing dog running through the parking lot.

True, if I were her, I would have moved my car street side as soon as I remembered, but I guess she probably remembered when she heard about the dog.

Which makes me wonder, all the times I was in school, there were never any gun/drug sniffing dogs unless there was a report of someone having them and then it was normally pretty targeted. I wonder if someone tipped them off, this doesn't seem like it'd be a normal routine.

 

[Swedish K]

True, if I were her, I would have moved my car street side as soon as I remembered, but I guess she probably remembered when she heard about the dog.

Which makes me wonder, all the times I was in school, there were never any gun/drug sniffing dogs unless there was a report of someone having them and then it was normally pretty targeted. I wonder if someone tipped them off, this doesn't seem like it'd be a normal routine.

either that or the local pd got a new dog and wanted to exercise him a bit.

 

[eriknemily]

True, if I were her, I would have moved my car street side as soon as I remembered, but I guess she probably remembered when she heard about the dog.

From the report I read I believe students were not allowed to park off campus or even leave campus until the school day was over.

Which makes me wonder, all the times I was in school, there were never any gun/drug sniffing dogs unless there was a report of someone having them and then it was normally pretty targeted. I wonder if someone tipped them off, this doesn't seem like it'd be a normal routine.

Again, according to what I read the school regularly had 'random' searches with the sniffer hound.