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WTF?!? What do you think about police now using bombs to stop criminals?

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by groth, Jul 8, 2016.

  1. groth

    groth Camas Member

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    In all seriousness, does anyone else have any issues with police using bombs to subdue suspects? I completely agree this guy was guilty of murder, and he was still a threat at the time police used a robot with a bomb to neutralize the threat, but when did our government receive or give authority to bomb criminals? Who is paying for the property damage? Was law enforcement sure there was no other innocent lives in the area of a bomb blast? I can see things turning very dangerous quickly in our nation when police and criminals start making this country look like a war zone.

    Are we entering the age of drone strikes on US soil? Is government now going to be neutralizing threats with bombs?o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O
     
  2. DONOTBUGME

    DONOTBUGME Auburn, WA Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    Yes, who do you think the govt will send to collect firearms when they ban them...its going to be cops. So the cops will say we need drones in case one of those wacko right wingers are hold up in their house with an arsenal. It's not safe for them to enter the house and they just can't leave so they will blow the whole house up, to ensure their safety and the safety of others around of course. At some point, the police are going to have to decide if they want to follow the politicians unjust laws and protect them or fight alongside with the American people.
     
  3. lyoncoeur

    lyoncoeur Gladstone, Oregon New Member

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    I share your concerns Groth...no question this person needed to be at least taken into custody...but the use of an explosive device is simply going straight to summary execution...no due process. Law Enforcement acting as military.
     
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  4. slimer13

    slimer13 Deer Park Well-Known Member

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    Seems like to me, once he was barricaded inside, the imminent threat to the officers had subsided as well as the justification for deadly force. SWAT enters, he's holding a gun or makes a move toward one, fire away. The means is largely irrelevant to me (gun, explosives, etc).

    What is disturbing is that the government is actively using ordinance never before used against the American people while simultaneously trying to disarm them.
     
  5. DONOTBUGME

    DONOTBUGME Auburn, WA Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    They even talked about how the military was using their robots in this manner, like it gave them justification to also use it.
     
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  6. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I don't like this idea at all.

    But I am rattling around this question in my mind - the police are already shooting at these folks, using lethal force to stop them, at what point does one kind of lethal force become worse than the other? We don't seem to question if a cop uses a gun to shoot a bad guy, killing him, but we do question using another lethal means to stop him. My assumption, having no other information available at this time, was that they were unable to approach him perhaps because they didn't have anything to protect themselves. Kind of reminds me of the BOA shootout years ago where the two baddies had full on body armor and automatic weapons. The police were outgunned by a long shot. Again, my question is not meant to justify their use in any way, but just to put out a thought exercise on the difference between one kind of deadly force over another. And don't some LE agencies have rifles up to .50BMG already in their arsenal? Would you need a robot with explosives when you can shoot a .50 cal roufoss round through every wall of a building to take someone out?

    They should also consider this - what's to stop bad guys from doing the same thing? Getting some sort of remote control robot/drone that they equip with an explosive and drive right into a group of unsuspecting people? Do we then need to talk about drone/robot control?
     
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  7. groth

    groth Camas Member

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    I think there was talk from the shooter that they too had explosives, so this decision might have been the best route incase the shooter did have a bomb as well. Just very scary times, when more people, civilians and terrorists(ISIS), are turning to mass shootings to vent their frustrations, and police are responding with higher levels of force (bombs on robots aka drones) to respond.
     
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  8. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    It is crazy, no doubt about that. Funny how so much of this intense hatred between certain groups has amped up so much in just the last 7 1/2 years. Not exactly the kind of 'hope and change' I think most of us expected.

    I was just reading an article on this incident and thought the follow excerpt from a law professor and former police officer was interesting:

    But while there are likely to be intense ethical debates about when and how police deploy robots in this manner, Stoughton said he doesn’t think Dallas’s decision is particularly novel from a legal perspective. Because there was an imminent threat to officers, the decision to use lethal force was likely reasonable, while the weapon used was immaterial.

    “The circumstances that justify lethal force justify lethal force in essentially every form,” he said. “If someone is shooting at the police, the police are, generally speaking, going to be authorized to eliminate that threat by shooting them, or by stabbing them with a knife, or by running them over with a vehicle. Once lethal force is justified and appropriate, the method of delivery—I doubt it’s legally relevant.” Source: The Advent of Killer Police Robots (http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/07/dallas-police-robot/490478/)


    We are entering a new era, one that I do hope will settle down in the near future, once they realize the hate, fueled in part by the hatred from our own POTUS, is getting us no where.
     
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  9. Lance Jacobs

    Lance Jacobs South Willamette Valley Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Dude, he killed 5 police officers. Do you think that anyone will shed tears for someone who did that??

    How is this any different from a SWAT sniper taking someone out? In both cases, the person is being executed. Whether a bomb or a gun is used makes no difference at all. The result is the same.
    .
     
  10. groth

    groth Camas Member

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    I too thought of the BOA shooting, and after that police became more heavily armed. It is getting a little scary in the US. Add to this that in many places the people are being disarmed, and not allowed to carry for their own protection, and that of their family. Very scary times, and I hope the unrest will calm before it gets any worse.
     
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  11. BillM

    BillM Amity OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    3 versions of the story:
    1. The robot had the bomb, source of the bomb was the police. Police detonated bomb
    near suspect.

    2. The suspect had the bomb. The police robot detonated it.

    3. The suspect had the bomb, detonated it and committed suicide.

    Which one is true? Darned if I know. Heck---Some black bunch on Facebook has
    taken responsibility for the shooters, and another place on Facebook they are
    identified (with pictures) as a couple of neo-nazi skinheads.

    Everybody just take a step back, give your thumbs a rest, say a prayer for the fallen
    and their families--and wait for the truth to sort itself out.
     
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  12. groth

    groth Camas Member

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    I completely agree this POS needed to be neutralized, but it is a little concerning that LE have turned to bombs to do so. It is setting a scary precedent in my opinion.
     
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  13. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    The police chief already answered that question - they put the bomb on the robot to kill the suspect:

    “We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was,” Chief David Brown said in a press conference Friday morning. “Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger. The suspect is deceased … He’s been deceased because of a detonation of the bomb.”
     
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  14. slimer13

    slimer13 Deer Park Well-Known Member

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    Eyes on target is the difference. He could have been taking a dump for all they knew. Armed dangerous suspects barricade themselves every day in this country. IMO there are only two options by LEO. Either gain entry and assess/neutralize the threat or wait the suspect out until they surrender possibly using less lethal weapons to speed up the process.
     
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  15. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    And don't forget the flap in the last few years about agencies getting MRAP's and other military surplus from the government. That was part of Obama's doing as well. The question is, where do you draw the line? If bad guys get more armed up, do you not also want the LE's to somewhat be prepared to stop them? Man, what a tough question.
     
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  16. DONOTBUGME

    DONOTBUGME Auburn, WA Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was,” Chief David Brown said in a press conference Friday morning. “Other options would have exposed our officers to grave danger.

    you mean expose officers that volunteered for their job....It is their job to be in harm's way.
     
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  17. DeanfromOregon

    DeanfromOregon Wilsonville Amateur Ascended Master Platinum Supporter

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    This is just putting an exclamation point on the need for a larger perimeter.
     
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  18. groth

    groth Camas Member

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    Extremely difficult questions, and scary. I am holding out hope reasonable solutions will present themselves. Reasonable solutions from our politicians as of lately seems like the farthest from reasonable though.
     
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  19. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    They are definitely not the source of reason nor the ones we should turn to for answers. They just get too much wrong far too often with far too few consequences for their poor and uneducated choices.
     
  20. groth

    groth Camas Member

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    This is why I found it interesting and a very scary precedent a bomb was used. First time I can think of law enforcement using a bomb on a suspect/murderer. Scary because will this be the new norm perhaps?