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Why get a 308
- Thread Starter AK0perator47
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Going to turn this on its head a little and yes, answer the "why not".
First, you don't really say why you think you want/need the rifle, so I am going to assume from the type of rifle and chambering, that you want it as a SHTF rifle. Maybe I am projecting here - that is why I would want one - and I have not read the thread yet, but that is the assumption I will be working from since you did not, in your OP at least, say why.
Feel free to elucidate on any aspects of your situation or envisioned scenarios of use that you did not (but should have) provide in your OP.
Here are the why nots:
1) Given your location, west of the Cascades, the primary benefit of a ".308" rifle - the greater power and therefore greater range, just will not be something that will benefit most people most of the time. There are very few places west of the Cascades where a person would need to take defensive shots in a SHTF situation beyond 2-300 yards. Maybe a few more for hunting, but those are few too.
I have been out in the open areas of eastern WA with a number of my firearms and shot at long range - it was decades ago, and my eyes and body are not what they were then, but it is an example that is useful. I shot a precision M1A at 1km and did pretty good against a 24" round metal target with a 2-7X scope. I also shot man sized silhouette targets at 500 meters with an AK bullpup with aperture rear and post front with a 7" sight radius. Shooting off-hand standing in 95* heat and sun, I was able to hit the targets 50% of the time.
The point is not that 7.62x39 in an AK is a good 500 meter rifle, it is that it can be effective enough to hit targets at that range. I would not want to be shot at with an AK at any range. An AK is quite effective at 2-300 meters, which is the extreme range that most people would find themselves using the rifle on this side of the Cascades.
The AK and the common chamberings (7.62x39, 5.56x45 and 5.45x39) are quite adequate for most SHTF usage west of the Cascades, both defense and hunting - although hunting elk might be one exception (the 7.62x39 would be ok if you got close, had the right ammo and did your part with bullet placement - my grandfather took a number of elk and bear with an old .30-30 before I was born).
2) The .308 rifles and ammo are heavier and recoil more. This is a factor both in defense usage and in being able to patrol, have a rifle at hand while working around the BOL, and for getting home on foot. Less ammo carried because of weight.
3) More expensive for both rifle and ammo.
4) Fewer people in a group will be comfortable shooting a .308 than the lower powered cartridges.
5) In the lower powered cartridges there are two standard platforms - the AR and the AK. Training, availability and exchange of mags and parts, all become easier with standard platforms. With the .308, you have the FAL, the HK, the AR, the M1A, Galil/Valmet, Keltec, DT MDR, and a number of others. While the FAL, AR and M1A are the most common, there really is not a consensus like there is with the lower powered cartridges. The bottom line is that you are as likely to run into mags and parts for the AR as you are the FAL or the M1A, and you will also have people who know the HK well, but not the FAL or the M1A.
6) For longer shots, a bolt action rifle can do as well as a semi-auto if your goal is to hit someone or something. If your goal is to spray the area with suppressive fire, then a semi-auto AK can put bullets into an area as well as a FAL, better maybe.
While I feel that civilian SHTF firearm usage is different than military usage, there is some validity to the view that there are reasons why the military squads/etc. mostly have intermediate powered rifles with maybe on designated marksman with a higher powered rifle (which until recently has often been a bolt action rifle).
First, you don't really say why you think you want/need the rifle, so I am going to assume from the type of rifle and chambering, that you want it as a SHTF rifle. Maybe I am projecting here - that is why I would want one - and I have not read the thread yet, but that is the assumption I will be working from since you did not, in your OP at least, say why.
Feel free to elucidate on any aspects of your situation or envisioned scenarios of use that you did not (but should have) provide in your OP.
Here are the why nots:
1) Given your location, west of the Cascades, the primary benefit of a ".308" rifle - the greater power and therefore greater range, just will not be something that will benefit most people most of the time. There are very few places west of the Cascades where a person would need to take defensive shots in a SHTF situation beyond 2-300 yards. Maybe a few more for hunting, but those are few too.
I have been out in the open areas of eastern WA with a number of my firearms and shot at long range - it was decades ago, and my eyes and body are not what they were then, but it is an example that is useful. I shot a precision M1A at 1km and did pretty good against a 24" round metal target with a 2-7X scope. I also shot man sized silhouette targets at 500 meters with an AK bullpup with aperture rear and post front with a 7" sight radius. Shooting off-hand standing in 95* heat and sun, I was able to hit the targets 50% of the time.
The point is not that 7.62x39 in an AK is a good 500 meter rifle, it is that it can be effective enough to hit targets at that range. I would not want to be shot at with an AK at any range. An AK is quite effective at 2-300 meters, which is the extreme range that most people would find themselves using the rifle on this side of the Cascades.
The AK and the common chamberings (7.62x39, 5.56x45 and 5.45x39) are quite adequate for most SHTF usage west of the Cascades, both defense and hunting - although hunting elk might be one exception (the 7.62x39 would be ok if you got close, had the right ammo and did your part with bullet placement - my grandfather took a number of elk and bear with an old .30-30 before I was born).
2) The .308 rifles and ammo are heavier and recoil more. This is a factor both in defense usage and in being able to patrol, have a rifle at hand while working around the BOL, and for getting home on foot. Less ammo carried because of weight.
3) More expensive for both rifle and ammo.
4) Fewer people in a group will be comfortable shooting a .308 than the lower powered cartridges.
5) In the lower powered cartridges there are two standard platforms - the AR and the AK. Training, availability and exchange of mags and parts, all become easier with standard platforms. With the .308, you have the FAL, the HK, the AR, the M1A, Galil/Valmet, Keltec, DT MDR, and a number of others. While the FAL, AR and M1A are the most common, there really is not a consensus like there is with the lower powered cartridges. The bottom line is that you are as likely to run into mags and parts for the AR as you are the FAL or the M1A, and you will also have people who know the HK well, but not the FAL or the M1A.
6) For longer shots, a bolt action rifle can do as well as a semi-auto if your goal is to hit someone or something. If your goal is to spray the area with suppressive fire, then a semi-auto AK can put bullets into an area as well as a FAL, better maybe.
While I feel that civilian SHTF firearm usage is different than military usage, there is some validity to the view that there are reasons why the military squads/etc. mostly have intermediate powered rifles with maybe on designated marksman with a higher powered rifle (which until recently has often been a bolt action rifle).
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That said, I have several .308 rifles.
Why?
Why not?
Why?
Why not?
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Seriously, I have .308 rifles for a number of reasons.
1) It is a popular cartridge and I generally have at least one firearm chambered for the most popular cartridges.
2) From a static defensive position, the .308 provides more power for penetration of light cover such as a car body or windshield.
3) For a designated marksman role. I can envision scenarios where an opposing force may choose to engage at a distance and just lay in fire onto a static defense. Someone - a DM - with a .308 or similar rifle - could make that attack less effective.
4) Elk hunting.
5) In some SHTF situations, exotic animals may escape their enclosures. Zoos, wildlife 'sanctuaries' and so on. You would be surprised at the number of large dangerous animals that are in private hands. The zoos naturally have some animals that may escape and that you may have to deal with. I would rather shoot a rhino or elephant with a .308 than a .223
But the .308 is not my go to rifle, and it is not the one that I would get for each member of my group. I would have at least one, but not one for each person.
1) It is a popular cartridge and I generally have at least one firearm chambered for the most popular cartridges.
2) From a static defensive position, the .308 provides more power for penetration of light cover such as a car body or windshield.
3) For a designated marksman role. I can envision scenarios where an opposing force may choose to engage at a distance and just lay in fire onto a static defense. Someone - a DM - with a .308 or similar rifle - could make that attack less effective.
4) Elk hunting.
5) In some SHTF situations, exotic animals may escape their enclosures. Zoos, wildlife 'sanctuaries' and so on. You would be surprised at the number of large dangerous animals that are in private hands. The zoos naturally have some animals that may escape and that you may have to deal with. I would rather shoot a rhino or elephant with a .308 than a .223
But the .308 is not my go to rifle, and it is not the one that I would get for each member of my group. I would have at least one, but not one for each person.
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I thought that's what the 50 BMG was made for? Personally, if I were getting an "all around" bolt action I'd buy a good ol 30-06. If I were wanting a bigger semi auto on an AR10 platform I'd opt for a 308win. For close range and maybe even stretching it out a little past 500 yards, I'd keep my AR15 223/5.56. If going for long range I'd bypass the 308 win, and be looking at a bolt action 6.5 creedmoor, 7mm magnum, 300 magnum or even one of the 338 magnums.
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I concur with your points. If you have to deal with large animals or unruly Cadillacs, the .308/7.62 is a better round. I also agree that most people would be better off with a .223/5.56 or even a Ruger 10/22.
Finally, I have begun to move towards the semi-autos for the recoil reduction. As I've gotten older and begun to develop arthritis in my shoulders, I find that I can fire more rounds without pain from a M1A than from a bolt action.
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I am trending towards bolt actions and/or other non semi-auto rifles in the popular chamberings to backup my semi-autos. E.G, an Ishapore Enfield with a short barrel and a scout scope, or my CZ 527. I have a Savage 24 in .223/20 but I would like a bolt action, like a CZ or something that would take an AR mag.
If my semi-autos get lost in a boating accident, then I still have rifles in those chamberings. Not sure how valid the idea is that confiscation might only target semi-autos and not bolt actions, but there is an argument for that being the case, plus, having a bolt action for hunting allows one to develop special loads that won't work well in a semi-auto - e.g., a .223 loaded down to .22 mag levels, but with better bullets, or loaded hot for 'varmints' with light bullets.
If my semi-autos get lost in a boating accident, then I still have rifles in those chamberings. Not sure how valid the idea is that confiscation might only target semi-autos and not bolt actions, but there is an argument for that being the case, plus, having a bolt action for hunting allows one to develop special loads that won't work well in a semi-auto - e.g., a .223 loaded down to .22 mag levels, but with better bullets, or loaded hot for 'varmints' with light bullets.
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I have PSA PA10. I don't consider it a true battle rifle. But you use what you got. Its fun to build on, plan on (Magpul, triggers, ect) and shoot cheap .308 ammo. The cheaper the better. When I get all the stuff I want on it I plan to rattle can the whole thing.
If I ever had to take a serious hike, shtf. I wouldn't take a 308. But for fun or hunting they are great.
If I ever had to take a serious hike, shtf. I wouldn't take a 308. But for fun or hunting they are great.
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I get it. What I was thinking about when I created the thread was a couple of things.
1) The AK is a 30 cal round that can tear up walls, vehicles, and be used for hunting.
2) Did people have viable reasons for the rifle and not have some ill conceived thoughts of plugging away at people some ridiculous distance away in the event of a societal collapse.
3) There are other rounds that are better at distance and can be fired from a bolt action which is far superior at accuracy over distance.
4) The cost of everything from ammunition to optics.
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In a semi-auto? I think most people have it either because they just want one, or because they have "ill conceived" thoughts about SHTF scenarios.
For a general purpose rifle that does most everything, I think the .308 fits that place. It is one of the cartridges I would put on a short list of being able to do pretty much whatever I needed it to do. Like the .30-06 it is a pretty versatile cartridge. I don't care for belted magnums and such - I don't think they are as versatile.
For a general purpose rifle that does most everything, I think the .308 fits that place. It is one of the cartridges I would put on a short list of being able to do pretty much whatever I needed it to do. Like the .30-06 it is a pretty versatile cartridge. I don't care for belted magnums and such - I don't think they are as versatile.
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It's barely more powerful than the .30 carbine. come on
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I have been reading this thread since it was posted and a lot of great points have been made. So this is my take on it. its just my ramblings........
Battle rifles are just that Battle rifles. They are "minute of a man" and really nothing more. Without a lot of work (money) some will become more accurate others it wont change a thing. Large frame ARs are not battle rifles nor is there a Mil-spec for them. Before I get flamed on this, KAC (M110) does follow mil-spec for when it comes to the 1913 Pic rail or hardness/coatings but there is no dimensional mil-spec base like there is for the M-16 family. That being said the large frame AR does provide the best base economically for a pseudo Battle rifle / precision rifle type platform.
Training; you will never hit nothing past your muzzle if you don't train for it regardless of caliber.
Training + Desired results = Money (usually ammo)
Compromise on platform. This ties into the two above. Be realistic with your expectations. how many people actually looked at the environment they think they will be operating in? if you haven't, don't freak the neighbors out but stand in your front windows, or the sides of the house and look at your sectors of fire. it will help you decide on a lot of things. Do the same at work. Obviously a little more covertly Rehearse your defense or evacuation plan.
the phrase "308 gets heavy when humping it" and humping 3 different rifles and ammo wouldn't? sigh................
Long Range Shooting: Not everyone is Carlos Hathcock. Sure there are people that are a natural when it comes to shooting. Regardless everyone has too work at long range shooting, everyone. That's just a fact. At the end of the day some find out its just not for them. There are calibers that have better BC's than the .308. for distance. there are a lot of things that affect your projectiles Ballistic coefficient. Simply put BC is derived from muzzle velocity and design F1-F7 (there are other shapes) and a couple other factors. your projectiles BC changes as it sheds velocity downrange. The new sweetheart is the 6.5CM and she's the newest "queen for a year". For PRS or "F" class Tactical the cartridge changes as fast as the wind does in LR shooting.
A nod for the old girl (.308 that is) In a precision rifle you can still shoot any run of the mill .308 ammo or you can run M118LR/FGMM/Black Hills, etc through a battle rifle. You will be guaranteed to find it at any .mil installation cause she isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
there is that old saying "beware of the man with one gun...................."
Battle rifles are just that Battle rifles. They are "minute of a man" and really nothing more. Without a lot of work (money) some will become more accurate others it wont change a thing. Large frame ARs are not battle rifles nor is there a Mil-spec for them. Before I get flamed on this, KAC (M110) does follow mil-spec for when it comes to the 1913 Pic rail or hardness/coatings but there is no dimensional mil-spec base like there is for the M-16 family. That being said the large frame AR does provide the best base economically for a pseudo Battle rifle / precision rifle type platform.
Training; you will never hit nothing past your muzzle if you don't train for it regardless of caliber.
Training + Desired results = Money (usually ammo)
Compromise on platform. This ties into the two above. Be realistic with your expectations. how many people actually looked at the environment they think they will be operating in? if you haven't, don't freak the neighbors out but stand in your front windows, or the sides of the house and look at your sectors of fire. it will help you decide on a lot of things. Do the same at work. Obviously a little more covertly
Rehearse your defense or evacuation plan.the phrase "308 gets heavy when humping it" and humping 3 different rifles and ammo wouldn't? sigh................
Long Range Shooting: Not everyone is Carlos Hathcock. Sure there are people that are a natural when it comes to shooting. Regardless everyone has too work at long range shooting, everyone. That's just a fact. At the end of the day some find out its just not for them. There are calibers that have better BC's than the .308. for distance. there are a lot of things that affect your projectiles Ballistic coefficient. Simply put BC is derived from muzzle velocity and design F1-F7 (there are other shapes) and a couple other factors. your projectiles BC changes as it sheds velocity downrange. The new sweetheart is the 6.5CM and she's the newest "queen for a year". For PRS or "F" class Tactical the cartridge changes as fast as the wind does in LR shooting.
A nod for the old girl (.308 that is) In a precision rifle you can still shoot any run of the mill .308 ammo or you can run M118LR/FGMM/Black Hills, etc through a battle rifle. You will be guaranteed to find it at any .mil installation cause she isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
there is that old saying "beware of the man with one gun...................."
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heres some brain food testing was done with 20" barrels with obvious exception of the pistols.
Now that a few rough practical examples of applied force have been given, let us now examine the Big Three military-surplus cartridge calibers' energy at varying distances (.30 Caliber Carbine and two pistol calibers are thrown in as a comparison to more modern military cartridges):
Caliber, Bullet Weight, Muzzle Energy and Muzzle Velocity
7.62x51mm NATO 147 gr ~2,550 ft/lbs (3,457 joules) @ 2,700 fps (FMJ)
7.62x39mm Soviet 123 gr ~1,525 ft/lbs (2,067 joules) @ 2,360 fps (FMJ)
5.56x45mm NATO 62 gr ~1,250 ft/lbs (1,694 joules) @ 3,050 fps (FMJ)
.30 Caliber Carbine 110 gr ~965 ft/lbs (1,308 joules) @ 1,995 fps (FMJ and JSP)
.45 ACP 230 gr ~390 ft/lbs (528 joules) @ 875 fps (JHP)
9x19mm Luger/Parabellum 115 gr ~385 ft/lbs (521 joules) @ 1,225 fps (JHP)
Energy at 100 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~2,100 ft/lbs (2,847 joules) @ 2,550 fps
7.62x39mm Soviet ~1,200 ft/lbs (1,626 joules) @ 2,104 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~970 ft/lbs (1,315 joules) @ 2,650 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~600 ft/lbs (813 joules) @ 1,570 fps
Energy at 200 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,750 ft/lbs (2,374 joules) @ 2,331 fps (now moving faster than 62 gr 5.56NATO)
7.62x39mm Soviet ~915 ft/lbs (1,240 joules) @ 1,825 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~735 ft/lbs (995 joules) @ 2,310 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~375 ft/lbs (508 joules) @ 1,240 fps (equal in force to 230 gr .45ACP @ ~10 yards)
Energy at 300 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,450 ft/lbs (1,965 joules) @ 2,125 fps
7.62x39mm Soviet ~690 ft/lbs (935 joules) @ 1,585 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~550 ft/lbs (745 joules) @ 2,000 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~265 ft/lbs (359 joules) @ 1,040 fps
Energy at 400 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,200 ft/lbs (1,625 joules) @ 1,931 fps (equal in force to 5.56NATO @ ~15 yards)
7.62x39mm Soviet ~515 ft/lbs (700 joules) @ 1,370 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~405 ft/lbs (550 joules) @ 1,718 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~210 ft/lbs (284 joules) @ 930 fps
Energy at 500 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,000 ft/lbs (1,355 joules) @ 1,750 fps
7.62x39mm Soviet ~395 ft/lbs (535 joules) @ 1,200 fps (equal in force to 230gr .45ACP @ ~2 yards)
5.56x45mm NATO ~290 ft/lbs (393 joules) @ 1,460 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~175 ft/lbs (237 joules) @ 850 fps
Energy at 600 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~810 ft/lbs (1,100 joules) @ 1,560 fps (equal in force to 5.56NATO @ ~150 yards)
7.62x39mm Soviet ~280 ft/lbs (379 joules) @ 1,030 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~172 ft/lbs (233 joules) @ 1,122 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~135 ft/lbs (183 joules) @ 760 fps
It is plainly obvious why so many recommend a 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Win) chambered rifle as a primary defense rifle. It clearly overpowers all other modern, common military battle rifle calibers at all ranges and maintains a further effective range. The few negative aspects are the relatively higher recoil, louder report and heavier cartridge weight.
Now that a few rough practical examples of applied force have been given, let us now examine the Big Three military-surplus cartridge calibers' energy at varying distances (.30 Caliber Carbine and two pistol calibers are thrown in as a comparison to more modern military cartridges):
Caliber, Bullet Weight, Muzzle Energy and Muzzle Velocity
7.62x51mm NATO 147 gr ~2,550 ft/lbs (3,457 joules) @ 2,700 fps (FMJ)
7.62x39mm Soviet 123 gr ~1,525 ft/lbs (2,067 joules) @ 2,360 fps (FMJ)
5.56x45mm NATO 62 gr ~1,250 ft/lbs (1,694 joules) @ 3,050 fps (FMJ)
.30 Caliber Carbine 110 gr ~965 ft/lbs (1,308 joules) @ 1,995 fps (FMJ and JSP)
.45 ACP 230 gr ~390 ft/lbs (528 joules) @ 875 fps (JHP)
9x19mm Luger/Parabellum 115 gr ~385 ft/lbs (521 joules) @ 1,225 fps (JHP)
Energy at 100 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~2,100 ft/lbs (2,847 joules) @ 2,550 fps
7.62x39mm Soviet ~1,200 ft/lbs (1,626 joules) @ 2,104 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~970 ft/lbs (1,315 joules) @ 2,650 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~600 ft/lbs (813 joules) @ 1,570 fps
Energy at 200 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,750 ft/lbs (2,374 joules) @ 2,331 fps (now moving faster than 62 gr 5.56NATO)
7.62x39mm Soviet ~915 ft/lbs (1,240 joules) @ 1,825 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~735 ft/lbs (995 joules) @ 2,310 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~375 ft/lbs (508 joules) @ 1,240 fps (equal in force to 230 gr .45ACP @ ~10 yards)
Energy at 300 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,450 ft/lbs (1,965 joules) @ 2,125 fps
7.62x39mm Soviet ~690 ft/lbs (935 joules) @ 1,585 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~550 ft/lbs (745 joules) @ 2,000 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~265 ft/lbs (359 joules) @ 1,040 fps
Energy at 400 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,200 ft/lbs (1,625 joules) @ 1,931 fps (equal in force to 5.56NATO @ ~15 yards)
7.62x39mm Soviet ~515 ft/lbs (700 joules) @ 1,370 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~405 ft/lbs (550 joules) @ 1,718 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~210 ft/lbs (284 joules) @ 930 fps
Energy at 500 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~1,000 ft/lbs (1,355 joules) @ 1,750 fps
7.62x39mm Soviet ~395 ft/lbs (535 joules) @ 1,200 fps (equal in force to 230gr .45ACP @ ~2 yards)
5.56x45mm NATO ~290 ft/lbs (393 joules) @ 1,460 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~175 ft/lbs (237 joules) @ 850 fps
Energy at 600 yards
7.62x51mm NATO ~810 ft/lbs (1,100 joules) @ 1,560 fps (equal in force to 5.56NATO @ ~150 yards)
7.62x39mm Soviet ~280 ft/lbs (379 joules) @ 1,030 fps
5.56x45mm NATO ~172 ft/lbs (233 joules) @ 1,122 fps
.30 Caliber Carbine ~135 ft/lbs (183 joules) @ 760 fps
It is plainly obvious why so many recommend a 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Win) chambered rifle as a primary defense rifle. It clearly overpowers all other modern, common military battle rifle calibers at all ranges and maintains a further effective range. The few negative aspects are the relatively higher recoil, louder report and heavier cartridge weight.
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because star trek the next generation is more realistic than the latter.
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Not entirely accurate but ok. I said the logic and reasoning why I created the thread. There have been solid answers from a lot of people. Then there are the other ones. Valid for the people that posted them. Personally I was reminded of some things that I had forgotten about the round. Kinda happens when you read a bunch of crap from people that have no clue but know how to articulate well.
Rcnpthfndr helped illustrate for me some other bits of information. The 762x39 AK round is traveling and has as much energy at 500 yards as a 9mm at the muzzle. "Now I realize that the 308 has more but I am trying to make a point."
The 9mm can go through a car door. So the 762 ak round can as well at a decent distance. I am not claiming that it could outperform the 308, just that it serves a great purpose for what it was designed for, medium range.
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Great thread; drilling down to the nit-noids of .30 Cal is fun....
CD has a good point...+
If a person wanted a watered-down .30 Cal, a mini 30 or a 30 Carbine may a better opion than a AK
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NO way the first one was way more realistic. But I am sure they had better velocity on there tazer's in the next generation.
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Except CD was wrong; the .30 Carbine has about half the power of the 7.62x39. I can think of a few other reasons that the .30 Carbine is inferior; ever seen .30 Carbine ammo with heavier bullets? No? In my experience (I grew up with a .30 Carbine) it recoils about the same as an AR15. It also has a much shorter range than either the AR or the AK.
I also used to own a Mini-14 (similar to the Mini 30). Difficult to get to shoot accurately. Has some of the same shortcomings of the M1/M1A design. Ruger's rifles, except their ARs) usually have proprietary mags too, and the Minis are no exception.
No rifle is perfect, but these kinds of issues are what give me pause about certain rifles.
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