Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Why Does the US Lead in Mass Shootings??

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by etrain16, Aug 27, 2015.

  1. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    8,553
    Likes Received:
    19,914
    I have to admit a bit of surprise finding an article by the Washington Post on MSN that actually offers an alternate explanation other than just guns as an explanation for the higher than average number of mass shootings in the US. Could these folks possibly be getting it? It's not really about the guns (or at least not totally about the guns - probably as far as they're willing to go), but maybe something more is going on, something that is deep at the heart of people that no amount of gun control will overcome.

    I won't hold my breath, but it's refreshing to see an alternate explanation offered in an MSM outlet. Now, if they could just drop the gun part of it altogether, it would be nice, but I won't hold my breath for that one.

    It's an interesting article, worth the time to read. Here are a few excerpts and a link to the main article:

    One explanation is Americans’ high rate of firearm ownership. All five of the countries with the largest number of guns per capita (of which the U.S. is No. 1) ranked among the top 15 countries for public mass shootings, including two countries with reputations for safety, Switzerland and Finland. Many other studies have found a correlation between local gun ownership rates and deaths from shootings.

    But that’s not enough to explain why mass shootings happen so much more often here than anywhere else. There are also cultural factors at work, Lankford argues. The things that Americans believe make us exceptional — our emphasis on individualism, our sense of destiny, our wealth-and-fame-based standards for success — also contribute.



    The reality is that very few people achieve the wealth, fame and prestige we’re all socialized to believe is our destiny. When the socially sanctioned path toward success doesn’t take people where they want to go, some resort to other means. Negative social interactions — lack of friends and mentors, failures in school — and mental illness can exacerbate the problem, making them believe that “their dreams are hopeless,” Lankford said.


    Workplaces and schools — or, in Flanagan’s case, former colleagues — are the symbolic sources of their strain; by attacking them, shooters seek to exact revenge on the people and institutions they believe have kept them down. In the U.S., the strain of unmet expectations and unrealized goals is more pressing than perhaps anywhere else, so it makes a gruesome kind of sense that this country is home to nearly two thirds of the world’s school and workplace shooters.

    Source: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/american-exceptionalism-and-the-‘exceptionally-american’-problem-of-mass-shootings/ar-BBm9m4V


    I have to say that this article makes a good point about what many of us have been saying, but what has been very much ignored. People are the problem, not the guns. And no number of laws will change the hearts of people. Take one tool of harm away and they'll find another. You're not solving the problem, only changing the methods they use when they act out.

    What do you think??
     
  2. rick benjamin

    rick benjamin USA, Or, Damascus Secure the drama Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

    Messages:
    2,439
    Likes Received:
    2,780
    This story is so warped.
    US is still the safest place to be
    Mexico - constantly finding mass murder graves
    Iraq - mass graves
    Somalia, Rwanda, Germany, Russia
    Consider the source, they never stop drinking LSD Koolaid
     
  3. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    8,553
    Likes Received:
    19,914
    Very true, they are warped. But it's one of the few times I've seen the MSM actually consider something other than just guns to blame. Of course, they still blame guns, but at least it's guns + something else.
     
    blackadder likes this.
  4. RVTECH

    RVTECH LaPine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,262
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    Yea I heard some 'stats' on the news the other day on Mexico - per murder rate AND missing persons I believe they equated Mexico AS dangerous as the Middle East
     
  5. sdlsaginaw

    sdlsaginaw Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    100
    This just in: Countries with large populations of elephants have a higher rate of death-by-elephant while countries without them have a much lower rate. :rolleyes:
     
  6. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    Media bends their stories to fit their agenda. How many have the Muslim terrorist killed yet that won't be counted into the numbers. Remember the 320 Russian children slaughter by the terrorist or the thousands of Christians, those numbers don't fit their agenda so they are left out. They write their stories to bend your thinking to what they want.
     
    Caveman Jim, hker71, Dyjital and 3 others like this.
  7. BlindedByScience

    BlindedByScience Vancouver WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    414
    Likes Received:
    432
    The article forgot to mention the decline in personal responsibility, the erosion of success being looked on as a good thing, the decay of the traditional family, the role of parents in disciplining their children, the loss of respect for LEO's....yeah, a few things they chose to overlook.

    Truth is, violent crime in the US is, and has been, going down for the last 20 years or so. FBI and DOJ statistics are easy to access. What you should be looking at is the murder per capita numbers, then tell me how unsafe we are (or not, as the case may be).

    There will always be crazy, evil people that will set out to do harm to others...no matter the cost. Guns, knives, machetes, cars driven into crowds....evil always finds a way.
     
  8. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,267
    A lion dies in Africa and they focus on the man, two TV people are murdered and they focus on the gun. With the amount of information we are bombarded with every day in our computer world it doesn't seem like many can think for themselves.
     
    mrblond, Caveman Jim, oknow and 3 others like this.
  9. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

    Messages:
    4,654
    Likes Received:
    5,773
    I guess they are completely omitting the fact that in the middle east and south Africa they have mass genocide continuing to this day I'm quite sure that trumps our "mass shooting" stats
     
  10. DuneHopper

    DuneHopper Douglas County. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,878
    Likes Received:
    3,622

    What is odd is we look at anywhere from 3 to 20 or so people as a massacre?
    Oakland California in 2014 had 294 deaths from criminals with guns, even more in L.A.
    There is an average 3.1 people killed per 100,000 in California each year. There are 37 million in California. Do the math thats a massacre if there ever was one and almost 90% are committed by felons and criminals in one of the tougher states on gun laws. o_O
    That is one state in the union, imagine if one takes all the states and adds up how many deaths are committed by criminals with guns ? Its staggering......... yet you will only hear on the media when a legally owned or legally attained firearm is used in a gun issue.

    I for one am sick, sick sick, of hearing the made up BS, by the media. Yes its sad when a shooting occurs. But if we really want to make a difference we need to get intercity problems solved because that is where the people are dying not in small town USA. Yet that is all we will ever hear from the communist new networks. :mad::mad::mad:
     
    Caveman Jim, oknow, hker71 and 3 others like this.
  11. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,918
    Likes Received:
    2,344
    Just a side thought ... Does it seem like "they" want to make us just like Europe? With all their crppy laws and crappy taxes and crappy unhappy people.

    Why? If America just goes back to being a European colony, there will be nothing special about this place. We might as well load up on ships and head back to whatever places our ancestors were trying to escape from.
     
  12. albin25

    albin25 Lewiston Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    4,117
    The Washington Post and MSN have not had an epiphany... they are just prepping for the next big anti-gun push...registration/confiscation.
    The anti-gun MSM is creating the narrative that because our society has become so fractured, so hopeless, so "self" oriented, so unrealistic in it's expectations of success and so desperate for social vindication, that we the people can no longer be trusted with guns, period.

    Would the deaths of the 2 reporters shot by that idiot have been less tragic if he put a bomb in their Newsvan? used a knife or an ax?

    What defines a "mass" shooting? 20? 6? 12? 4?... 2 seems a bit of a stretch, perhaps a multiple murder... and it probably would have been labeled as such, if the reporting wasn't "agenda driven" and wasn't about fellow media as victims.

    When comparing the number of Mass shootings with other countries...
    ...how do they define it..do THEY consider 2 is a "mass"?

    I often wonder what US crime stats would look like if someone could remove illegal non-citizen criminal acts from the totals...50% less?...65% less?... more? How about if we recorded criminal on criminal murders as "work related fatalities".



    As an aside...
    How come, when for the past 25 years, we're constantly fed that there are "somewhere" between 11 and 15 million illegals living in the US. and that every year "around" half a million new ones stay here?...wouldn't that add up to more like 25 - 30 million by now? I'm pretty sure that the volume of those sneaking back home again over the border is statistically too low to count.
     
    Caveman Jim and balaperdida like this.
  13. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

    Messages:
    3,318
    Likes Received:
    6,672
  14. balaperdida

    balaperdida eastern idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    425
    Likes Received:
    295
    Moved this comment to the correct thread.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  15. Raidingtime

    Raidingtime SE Portland Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    493
    The post does make a few logical statements. Demographics, misguided efforts, and cultural norms seem to be factors in the problem of violent crimes committed with a firearm. I do think it would be relevant to study how often the people that commit these crimes play violent video games such as Call of Duty or watch violent television programs/movies. I believe the lack of responsibility of parents censoring their children and taking time to properly raise them may make their children a higher risk factor.
     
    albin25 likes this.
  16. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,153
    Likes Received:
    7,028
  17. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,857
    Likes Received:
    10,560
    Look at the heinous ways mass murders are done in other parts of the world.....
    some Chinese guy just rampaged out with a meat cleaver or something and sliced up about 30 people.
    If there were no guns, only the methods would change and in most cases they would be more disgusting and a much bigger body count than anything that has happened here. In NY and in Oregon mass murders killed hundreds with fire bombs at dance halls. Stop attacking the constitution and an inanimate object for the mental sickness of humans !!!!!!

    And they will resort to gasoline, bombs, vehicles and things that are a hundred times more deadly.
    Get real you left wing MSM zombies. They can’t see beyond the ends of their paid for nose jobs and
    left wing media moguls.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/07/aurora_shooting_how_did_people_commit_mass_murder_before_automatic_weapons_.html

    Going Postal, Pre-Pistol
    How did mass murderers operate before the advent of modern weapons?
    By Brian Palmer


    120726_EXP_BILLHOOK.jpg
    In the 1800s, a French man killed three people with a bill hook.

    Photograph by Dave White/Thinkstock.


    The shooting spree that killed 12 people in an Aurora, Colo., movie theater on Friday has sparked a public debate about the availability of automatic weapons. Gun control advocates argue that mass murder is exceedingly difficult without them. One source told the Washington Post, “It’s kind of hard to be a pseudo-commando with a musket in the 18th century.” How did people commit mass murder before the advent of automatic weapons?


    Often with fire. Revolutionary War veteran Barnett Davenport is widely considered the first mass murderer in U.S. history. On the evening of Feb. 3, 1780, Davenport burst into the bedroom of his employer, Caleb Mallory, and began to bludgeon Mallory and his wife with a club. When the club broke in two, Davenport beat the couple to death with Mallory’s gun. If Davenport had stopped there, he would be remembered as just an ordinary killer; most criminologists define mass murder as the killing of at least three people in a single incident. After beating the Mallorys to death, however, Davenport burned the house down, killing their three grandchildren.

    Hundreds of other mass murderers have perpetrated their crimes without automatic firearms. Frenchman Pierre Riviere killed his mother, sister, and brother with a bill hook in 1835. In 1932, Julian Marcelino, a Filipino immigrant of relatively small stature, managed to kill six and wound 15 on a Seattle street using only a pair of blades. In 1915, Monroe Phillips shot seven dead and wounded 32 with a shotgun in Georgia.

    Guns aren’t even the most lethal mass murder weapon. According to data compiled by Grant Duwe of the Minnesota Department of Corrections, guns killed an average of 4.92 victims per mass murder in the United States during the 20th century, just edging out knives, blunt objects, and bare hands, which killed 4.52 people per incident. Fire killed 6.82 people per mass murder, while explosives far outpaced the other options at 20.82. Of the 25 deadliest mass murders in the 20th century, only 52 percent involved guns.

    The U.S. mass murder rate does not seem to rise or fall with the availability of automatic weapons. It reached its highest level in 1929, when fully automatic firearms were expensive and mostly limited to soldiers and organized criminals. The rate dipped in the mid-1930s, staying relatively low before surging again in the 1970s through 1990s. Some criminologists attribute the late-century spike to the potential for instant notoriety: Beginning with Charles Whitman’s 1966 shooting spree from atop a University of Texas tower, mass murderers became household names. Others point out that the mass murder rate fairly closely tracks the overall homicide rate. In the 2000s, for example, both the mass murder and the homicide rates dropped to their lowest levels since the 1960s.

    A mass murderer’s weapon of choice depends somewhat on his victims. Attacks with guns, fire, knives, and bare hands are far more likely to be directed against family and acquaintances than total strangers, while mass murderers prefer to use explosives against people they don’t know. Also of note: Those who use firearms in a killing spree turn the gun on themselves 34 percent of the time, while only 9 percent of mass-murdering arsonists take their own lives.
     
  18. U201491

    U201491 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,857
    Likes Received:
    10,560
    And the list goes on.

    https://www.google.com/search?as_q=...rights=#as_qdr=all&q=mass+murders+with+knives


    Worst Mass Murders in US History (any weapon): By no coincidence all of the worst mass murders in US history have been non-gun.


    Worst School Massacre in US history: Bath, Michigan School Massacre. 1927.Murder accomplished with explosives. 44 victims (equal to the Columbine and Virginia Tech massacres combined).

    Worst Domestic Terrorist Attack in US History:
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. 4/19/95. Murder accomplished with a rental truck full of fertilizer based explosives. 168 dead (including many children in an onsite day care).

    Worst Foreign based Terrorist Attack in US History:
    September 11, 2001 attacks on NYC, PA, Pentagon. Murder accomplished with box cutters and commerical airliners. ~3,000 people dead.

    Non-Gun Mass Murders (worldwide): By no means is this a complete list. I have focused on 2008, and NOT included the majority of terrorist attacks in recent times, most of which involve car bombs (London), attaché bombs on trains (Madrid), the Sarin gas attack in Tokyo, etc. (and in fact almost all modern terrorist attacks are done without guns for the reasons of efficiency stated above).


    Arson, Stabbing Rampage in Seoul South Korea : 10/20/2008. 6 people dead, 5 from stabbing. 7 others wounded, 4 seriously. An angry man felt people “looked down on him.”

    Anti-police stabbing spree in Shanghai, China: 7/2008. 6 Police Officers stabbed to death, 4 wounded. 28 year old man angry at police attacked a police station with a knife.

    Akihabara Massacre, Chiyoda City, Tokyo, Japan: 6/8/2008. 7 people killed (3 struck by car, 4 by stabbing), many more injured. Man slammed into a crowd with his car, then jumped out and began stabbing people to death.

    18 year old slashes 4 to death in Sitka, Alaska, US: 3/25/2008. 4 people killed. 18 year old (old enough to purchase a rifle over the counter) kills 4 people, related to him, with a 5 inch knife.

    Stabbing Spree kills 2, Tsuchiura, Japan: 3/23/2008. 2 killed, 7 wounded. Man “just wanted to kill anyone.”

    Stabbing spree wounds 41, 6 seriously in Berlin Train Station: 5/26/2006. 41 wounded, 6 seriously. Thankfully no one died in this attack, but not for lack of trying on the part of the drunk 16 year old.

    4 killed in stabbing spree in London, UK: 9/2004. 4 killed, 2 wounded. Mentally ill man attacks mostly older people.

    6 killed over Xbox dispute in Deltona, Florida, US: 8/6/2004. 6 killed. 4 men (all old enough to legally purchase firearms) bludgeon 6 people to death with baseball bats over purloined Xbox.

    Daegu subway fire, Daegu, South Korea: 2/18/2003. 198 killed, 147 injured. A 56 year old unemployed taxi driver, dissatisfied with his medical treatment, sets fire to a crowded train.

    Osaka School Massacre, Osaka Japan: 6/8/2001. 8 children dead, 13 other children and 2 teachers wounded. Committed by 37 year old former janitor armed with a kitchen knife.
     
  19. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler wa Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    685
    I fear its just a "rope-a-dope" tactic on their part... just trying to soften us up before the real onslaught starts. One factor I believe to be contributing is the loss of morals... what is right and what is wrong. They also fail to mention the influence of media and the race to the bottom track they seem to be on. Seriously, consider the type of programs and content today as compared to even 20 years ago. Mix that with the loss of morals and its makes a caustic sauce IMO.
     
    albin25 and U201491 like this.
  20. Raidingtime

    Raidingtime SE Portland Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    493

    This is of course the reality of the issue. People get hurt or killed across the world with various implements. Firearms availability is not correlated with violent crimes. Well I suppose it is because most statistics suggests that an increase of firearm ownership and CCLs decrease violent crime rate.

    I believe we're preaching to the choir though. This past week I brought up firearm ownership at a Bernie Sanders meeting. Not surprisingly, most people there are die hard liberal democrats and are against firearm ownership. I patiently took time to address their issues with firearms with statistics, good humor, and a warm conversation. My beginning statement was something like this:

    "I find it irritating when people make statements on issues that they know very little about. I, as a male, will not make a claim either way on the Pro choice/ Pro Life discussion because I feel like that is a female only topic. I am not female therefore I will let females decide upon what they wish to do with their bodies and potential offspring. This is similar to firearm ownership. I believe most people against firearm ownership and the 2nd amendment know very little to nothing about firearms and the culture surrounding them. In fact, everyone that I've talked to that is against firearm ownership and the 2nd amendment has never fired a firearm or received any firearms training. I do not think it's appropriate of people with no knowledge of firearms to take a stance to rid others of a right they hold very strongly. I will openly and calmly discuss firearm ownership and the 2nd amendment with other firearm owners because they understand the issue and culture much more. I am not a female but I am a firearms owner. I believe it's a human right to own a firearm and defend what's important to myself with it. The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting."