National When cops and America’s cherished gun rights collide, cops win

RedCardinalSeven

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The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guaranteed [the decedent Andrew] Scott's right to have a gun ...

None of that mattered, in the end. It was trumped by [Deputy] Sylvester’s claim that he was protected by qualified immunity, a controversial legal doctrine the Supreme Court created 50 years ago to shield police and other government officials from civil liability for actions undertaken on the job.

In her decision, [federal judge] Conway determined that Sylvester was legally justified to use deadly force because Scott was holding a gun, and that the officer was thus entitled to immunity. Conway’s decision was later upheld by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. The courts' rulings meant, in effect, that Scott gave up his Fourth Amendment rights when he exercised his Second Amendment rights,
Actually, one could and should add that Deputy Sylvester and the courts also stripped Andrew Scott of his 5th Amendment not "be deprived of life ... without due process of law".
Cases like these are why some gun rights advocates want qualified immunity to be reined in. “These cases are rare, but they shouldn’t happen at all. When they do happen, law enforcement should be held liable,” said Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, a Bellevue, Washington-based group that filed a brief in support of Mauck and the Scott family’s failed attempt to appeal their case to the Supreme Court. Gottlieb said police officers should not be able to cite the mere presence of a gun as a threat that justifies the use of deadly force.

Another gun rights group, the Firearms Policy Coalition, based in Sacramento, California, also favors reform of qualified immunity, Director of Legal Strategy Adam Kraut told Reuters.
 
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Is this the one where the guy came to the door armed and stepped out gun drawn? If so there was a thread on this where they showed the body cam of the incident from both body cams. It was sad and tragic but to me the guy died of terminal stupidity. Now if this is not the same case I would be interested in seeing more info.
 

bbbass

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Is this the one where the guy came to the door armed and stepped out gun drawn? If so there was a thread on this where they showed the body cam of the incident from both body cams. It was sad and tragic but to me the guy died of terminal stupidity. Now if this is not the same case I would be interested in seeing more info.
That case was in AZ, this one is in FL.

As discussed in the AZ case, be careful how you answer the door... bad schit can happen to good people!!!

Seems like in this case, the deputy(ies) in charge should have been disciplined for not double checking the address. Other than that, I'm really not in favor of reducing qualified immunity... LEOs need to be able to do their jobs w/o fear of unreasonable criminal prosecution for split second decisions. However, a civil suit against the city should have been successful from the sounds of it in the article.
 
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That case was in AZ, this one is in FL.

As discussed in the AZ case, be careful how you answer the door... bad schit can happen to good people!!!

Seems like in this case, the deputy(ies) in charge should have been disciplined for not double checking the address. Other than that, I'm really not in favor of reducing qualified immunity... LEOs need to be able to do their jobs w/o fear of unreasonable criminal prosecution for split second decisions. However, a civil suit against the city should have been successful from the sounds of it in the article.
Anyone have the original story for this one then? The website the OP is using "seems" to have an agenda
 
How many millions of interactions where nothing goes wrong? To think this officer and his partners had no remorse for this tragedy is suspect as well.

Like others have said the article writer seems to have an agenda...IMO.
 

bbbass

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Anyone have the original story for this one then? The website the OP is using "seems" to have an agenda
Couldn't find a diff story using a Google search for "FL man answers door with handgun", but there were enough stories of fatal OIS at doorways to indicate to me that this is a common occurrence... people need to get cameras installed!!!
 

Savage Jav

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Is this the one where the guy came to the door armed and stepped out gun drawn? If so there was a thread on this where they showed the body cam of the incident from both body cams. It was sad and tragic but to me the guy died of terminal stupidity. Now if this is not the same case I would be interested in seeing more info.
Just stepping out with a firearm doesn't mean you should get shot no more then wearing reveling clothes means you should get rapped. This is America you can be stupid if you chose and as long as your not physically harming someone go about your day.
 

USMC1911

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That case was in AZ, this one is in FL.

As discussed in the AZ case, be careful how you answer the door... bad schit can happen to good people!!!

Seems like in this case, the deputy(ies) in charge should have been disciplined for not double checking the address. Other than that, I'm really not in favor of reducing qualified immunity... LEOs need to be able to do their jobs w/o fear of unreasonable criminal prosecution for split second decisions. However, a civil suit against the city should have been successful from the sounds of it in the article.
Hard to make police and policing policy change with qualified immunity painted with such a broad brush. In my lifetime of 42 years a huge change in policing has occurred and its not all been for the betterment of the people they serve.
 

bbbass

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Hard to make police and policing policy change with qualified immunity painted with such a broad brush. In my lifetime of 42 years a huge change in policing has occurred and its not all been for the betterment of the people they serve.
As other LEOs have mentioned, the conditions they operate under now nowhere near are the same as they were 40 yrs ago. What a hard job to do, made harder, if not impossible.

Now I'm reading that officers in a certain community in a certain state, have mental health workers in the car with them. Seems like cannon fodder to me...
 

P7M13

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As I've harped earlier in other threads, with liberties come responsibilities.
As the line is steadily blurred on the difference between criminal and acceptable behavior, we will see more social misfits acting out, and normal, mouth breathing populace will expect the police to set things right.
And the pols will be there to tell you, they're going to keep you safe.
Yep.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Take away, or reduce "qualified immunity" from those whose job it is to go into harms way -- essentially playing stupid games -- and watch the police leave forces in droves.
The swing of the pendulum will fracture. Tree huggers and leftists will decry the violence, clamor for confiscation of all guns, and vigilante groups will take over where LEO will no longer tread.
Fun times ahead.
 
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Just stepping out with a firearm doesn't mean you should get shot no more then wearing reveling clothes means you should get rapped. This is America you can be stupid if you chose and as long as your not physically harming someone go about your day.
Did you watch the video I was talking about? If you just want all cops to be the devil, shrug, no reaching you. If that is not the case you should try watching the video I was talking about. The guy died of terminal stupidity.
LEO's come knocking on your door and you charge out pistol in hand? You are begging to get shot. Of course those who never would be able to get the job the LEO's do will often love to say they know far better. :s0092:
Again no reaching those who think that way.
 

Jonnyuma

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... the article writer seems to have an agenda
Anyone have the original story for this one then? The website..."seems" to have an agenda
They do.
It's an angle the antis have been trying out for a few years:
If people didn't have firearms, the coppers wouldn't be so edgy and go around shooting everybody.
No thanks, but keep trying.

I ain't buying this either...
From the judge:
“Andrew Scott made a fateful decision that night: he chose to answer his door with a gun in his hand. That changed everything. That is the one thing that — more than anything else — led to this tragedy,” Conway wrote in her Sept. 18, 2014, decision to toss out the lawsuit.
 

USMC1911

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As other LEOs have mentioned, the conditions they operate under now nowhere near are the same as they were 40 yrs ago. What a hard job to do, made harder, if not impossible.

Now I'm reading that officers in a certain community in a certain state, have mental health workers in the car with them. Seems like cannon fodder to me...
IMO the quality of the force/enforcement has gone down. Police are in no more danger then they were 40 years ago. Crime and specifically violent crime is significantly less then even 20 years ago. The militaristic nature of policing has definitely changed by a huge amount in that time frame.
 

bbbass

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IMO the quality of the force/enforcement has gone down
Not sure of the details on that. I am aware of orders from above to ignore a lot of laws on the books, failure to stop rioting, etc. I am also aware of the difficulty of recruiting quality candidates, and of keeping good officers. I have GREAT officers in my town. Care to say more?


Police are in no more danger then they were 40 years ago.
Not sure of this either. There is sure a lot of killings and injuries of officers in the news each day. Esp in 2020.


Crime and specifically violent crime is significantly less then even 20 years ago.
Thanx to increased police activities, special groups, and getting offenders put in prison for long periods. This is ALL being reversed and crime and violence is on a sharp upswing. But Oregon has the answer... just make crime legal!!!


The militaristic nature of policing has definitely changed by a huge amount in that time frame.
What would be your characterization of "militaristic"? Seems to me that LE has always been organized and run similar to military (BTW, Wildland Firefighter and USFS are too). But many people object to the use of certain weapons and vehicles... You???
 
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“Don’t open the door!!!” Massab Ayoob
That is the one question I seem to never see those who claim these people opening the door, gun in hand, are victims. Why did they open the door if they felt they needed to have a gun in hand? Do they keep a gun hanging by the door and have it in hand every time someone knocks? Only have gun in hand on certain days? Only have gun in hand certain hours of the day? If I felt I was in such immediate danger by opening the door that I needed to have gun in hand I would not open the damn door. An amazingly large number of people here act like they do this as SOP, have gun in hand if the door is going to be opened. :confused:
 
That is the one question I seem to never see those who claim these people opening the door, gun in hand, are victims. Why did they open the door if they felt they needed to have a gun in hand? Do they keep a gun hanging by the door and have it in hand every time someone knocks? Only have gun in hand on certain days? Only have gun in hand certain hours of the day? If I felt I was in such immediate danger by opening the door that I needed to have gun in hand I would not open the damn door. An amazingly large number of people here act like they do this as SOP, have gun in hand if the door is going to be opened. :confused:
The caveat is the knock was at 1:30am...make of it what you will.
 

bbbass

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That is the one question I seem to never see those who claim these people opening the door, gun in hand, are victims. Why did they open the door if they felt they needed to have a gun in hand? Do they keep a gun hanging by the door and have it in hand every time someone knocks? Only have gun in hand on certain days? Only have gun in hand certain hours of the day? If I felt I was in such immediate danger by opening the door that I needed to have gun in hand I would not open the damn door. An amazingly large number of people here act like they do this as SOP, have gun in hand if the door is going to be opened. :confused:
I have a gun next to the door in case I need it in an emergency. But I'm not in the habit of grabbing it out when I answer the door. Tho I don't have cameras due to not being able to justify the expense (yet), I did install peepholes at both exterior doors. At night, I'm not opening that door for anybody I don't know, nor for popo unless I can see a badge and a uniform.

(Edit to add: BTW, I have lights at each entrance, in the backyard, and at two diff corners of the detached garage.)
 
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