What The Heck Does The 5.7x28 Do That .22 WMR Doesn't?

[The Heretic]

 

[MrMillspecer]

It is a good rimfire round, it is better than .22 LR, but for self-defense, I prefer the Five Seven and PS90 over a single action revolver shooting a rimfire.

Wow. So a PS90 is a $1500 gun. Ammo is 2x the cost of .22mag.

I will stick with the 12ga, ARs , 9s or 45s for HD. And shoot for far less. The saying " money to burn" comes to mind.

 

[The Heretic]

Wow. So a PS90 is a $1500 gun. Ammo is 2x the cost of .22mag.

I will stick with the 12ga, ARs , 9s or 45s for HD. And shoot for far less. The saying " money to burn" comes to mind.

Valid points - to a point. The PS90, at least in the past (2016 IIRC), costs about $1300 new - I have seen the street price currently be that or less. The other two PS90s I bought were used and quite a bit less than that - also, the price varies for used ones depending on the generation of the rifle due mostly to trigger packs and rail/sight configurations (some trigger packs are worth hundreds more than others).

Also, when I bought most of my 5K of 5.7 ammo online (usually from PSA), the price was about 30-35 cents per round, much less than it is now. At the time, the price of 5.7x28 ammo was comparable to .22 WMR which had spiked in price due to the .22 rimfire scarcity issues at the time. The rest of the ammo I have came with some of the guns I bought. So all in all, I was in the right place at the right time with regards to buying these guns and their ammo. Still waiting for the Speer GD 5.7x28 ammo.

The Five Seven too, is a relatively expensive gun at about $850-$1K, depending on the generation of the gun and the current market (recently, with the Ruger 57 release, the prices have come down). If the Ruger 57 takes off and the Speer ammo becomes available, prices of 5.7x28 guns and ammo may come down.

As I said, these are niche guns and niche ammo. It fills a niche for me, and at the time I could afford to fill that niche. Right now, I am unemployed on a fixed income greatly reduced from my previous income. The future job market for me is iffy at my age and the current unemployment rate, so I am not inclined to be spending the kind of $ I once did on firearms in general, but that said, I pretty much have what I need for the most part with regards to the guns themselves and the ammo for most of them. I also have other defense and hunting guns in 9mm, .40, .45 ACP, .357 mag., .44 mag. .45LC/.454/.460, 12/20 ga and .410, .308, 5.56, 7.62x39, .30-30, .45-70, .30-06 and more. There are few holes in the ammo I have, but for the three of us, I have enough to feel comfortable for the foreseeable future.

My point is, I am not depending solely on 5.7x28 guns - they fill the niche they were designed for. Many people may not need to have that niche filled, and there are better guns for self-defense if a person is a healthy 20-30-40 something that can carry the extra weight and they have no problems with recoil that can't be solved with training and experience.

Finally, we aren't comparing the 5.7x28 to 9mm, .40, .45 ACP, .357 mag., .44 mag. .45LC/.454/.460, 12/20 ga and .410, .308, 5.56, 7.62x39, .30-30, .45-70 or .30-06 - we are comparing it to the .22 WMR.

 

[Oryguner]

I'm not attracted to the pistols but I like my AR57 a lot. The function of the 50 rd. PS90 mag is facinating to me and the P mag with out it's follower and spring is the brass catcher.

 

[MrMillspecer]

Valid points - to a point. The PS90, at least in the past (2016 IIRC), costs about $1300 new - I have seen the street price currently be that or less. The other two PS90s I bought were used and quite a bit less than that - also, the price varies for used ones depending on the generation of the rifle due mostly to trigger packs and rail/sight configurations (some trigger packs are worth hundreds more than others).

Also, when I bought most of my 5K of 5.7 ammo online (usually from PSA), the price was about 30-35 cents per round, much less than it is now. At the time, the price of 5.7x28 ammo was comparable to .22 WMR which had spiked in price due to the .22 rimfire scarcity issues at the time. The rest of the ammo I have came with some of the guns I bought. So all in all, I was in the right place at the right time with regards to buying these guns and their ammo. Still waiting for the Speer GD 5.7x28 ammo.

The Five Seven too, is a relatively expensive gun at about $850-$1K, depending on the generation of the gun and the current market (recently, with the Ruger 57 release, the prices have come down). If the Ruger 57 takes off and the Speer ammo becomes available, prices of 5.7x28 guns and ammo may come down.

As I said, these are niche guns and niche ammo. It fills a niche for me, and at the time I could afford to fill that niche. Right now, I am unemployed on a fixed income greatly reduced from my previous income. The future job market for me is iffy at my age and the current unemployment rate, so I am not inclined to be spending the kind of $ I once did on firearms in general, but that said, I pretty much have what I need for the most part with regards to the guns themselves and the ammo for most of them. I also have other defense and hunting guns in 9mm, .40, .45 ACP, .357 mag., .44 mag. .45LC/.454/.460, 12/20 ga and .410, .308, 5.56, 7.62x39, .30-30, .45-70, .30-06 and more. There are few holes in the ammo I have, but for the three of us, I have enough to feel comfortable for the foreseeable future.

My point is, I am not depending solely on 5.7x28 guns - they fill the niche they were designed for. Many people may not need to have that niche filled, and there are better guns for self-defense if a person is a healthy 20-30-40 something that can carry the extra weight and they have no problems with recoil that can't be solved with training and experience.

Finally, we aren't comparing the 5.7x28 to 9mm, .40, .45 ACP, .357 mag., .44 mag. .45LC/.454/.460, 12/20 ga and .410, .308, 5.56, 7.62x39, .30-30, .45-70 or .30-06 - we are comparing it to the .22 WMR.

You mentioned home defence. I have no niche to fill . And I didn't go on listing my hunting calibers. I like to stock up on calibers I support. So getting too many is more of a pain for me.

I'm not knocking anyone's choice.

 

[The Heretic]

I just wish that somebody would make a 5.56x45 adapter for 5.7x28 so I could shoot the 5.7x28 in a 5.56x45 bolt action or single shot. I guess I am going to have to make one myself.

 

[SonicBlue03]

Later I will go through and like every single one of Heretic's posts - not just because I agree with a lot of his content, but because he takes a reasoned, level approach in all of his responses and keeps this conversation propelled in a constructive direction when it could've gone sideways any number of ways.

We need more dialog of this style across the board. Props, sir.

 

[jnynetwk]

That CMMG upper sounds interesting Where did you score that? What modification did you need to do to the lower receiver to accommodate the 5.7?
The

I bought mine from Optics Planet because it was a few bucks cheaper, so shop around, but here are the product details from CMMG 5.7 AR Conversion Parts Archives | CMMG Inc.

I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but it literally sits on any normal "carbine" AR lower like any other upper. Their documentation says to be sure to use a carbine buffer and spring because I guess that's what they balanced the BCG for. I bought a CMMG carbine buffer and spring to use when I built my lower because those parts are pretty cheap and I just didn't want the hassle of dinking with the spring and buffer I had lying around.

There are several Youtube videos on the CMMG 5.7 though some are on their complete "pistol" (which is the same upper, just with their lower). Forgotten Weapons have some videos about the innovative design of their radial delayed blowback system that I found interesting. They apparently use the same system for all of their "pistol caliber" AR pistols and have 9mm, 45, 10mm, etc. versions.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

I just wish that somebody would make a 5.56x45 adapter for 5.7x28 so I could shoot the 5.7x28 in a 5.56x45 bolt action or single shot. I guess I am going to have to make one myself.

I have looked at this. The caliber that I suspect is most similar is 7.62x25. I keep debating which to get for my encore. I have been looking at 5.7x28 but have occasionally seen encore barrels in that category.

 

[Kruel J]

5.7 wouldn't even exist without the PS90. And that rifle is too eccentric to gain any real traction for the masses.

I'd take an FN 5.7 for the right price though. Unfortunately I don't see that happening.

 

[GWS]

Q: How many LEOs or military orgs use the .22 WMR in defensive weapons?

Serious question,
What military LEO organizations are using it? The one article I recall about 5.7 didn't mention any takers.

 

[Kruel J]

Serious question,
What military LEO organizations are using it? The one article I recall about 5.7 didn't mention any takers.

Are you asking about 5.7?

Per Wikipedia:

The P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, Greece, India, Malaysia, Poland, and the United States.[13] In the United States, the P90 is in use with over 200 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.[14] While developed and initially marketed as a PDW, it can also be considered a submachine gun or compact assault rifle.[12] In the United States, the standard selective fire P90 is restricted to military, law enforcement or holders of certain Federal Firearms Licenses (FFL) with the Special Occupational Tax (SOT). Since 2005, a semi-automatic version has been offered to civilian users as the PS90.[15]

FN P90 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[The Heretic]

Secret Service used it for years.

The P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, Greece, India, Malaysia, Poland, and the United States. In the United States, the P90 is in use with over 200 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.

FN P90 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Country	Organization	Model	Quantity	Date	Reference
Argentina	Agrupación de Buzos Tácticos tactical diver group of the Argentine Navy	P90​	−​	−​	[41][42][43]​
Policía de Seguridad Aeroportuaria (PSA; Airport Security Police)	P90​	−​	−​	[44]​
Grupo Alacrán special group of the Argentine National Gendarmerie	P90​	−​	−​	[44]​
Austria	Jagdkommando (Jakdo) special group of theAustrian Army	P90, P90 TR​	140​	−​	[45]​
Kommando Militärstreife & Militärpolizei (Kdo MilStrf&MP) close protection teams	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[46]​
Belgium	Marinecomponent/Composante Marine (Belgian Navy) commandos	−​	−​	−​	[47]​
Landcomponent/Composante Terre (Belgian Army), replacing the Uzi	−​	−​	2004–​	[48]​
Détachement d'Agents de Sécurité (DAS) dignitary protection group	P90​	53​	−​	[48]​
Directorate of Special Units (DSU) group of theFederale Politie/Police Fédérale/Föderale Polizei	−​	−​	−​	[49]​
Former Gendarmerie/Rijkswacht paramilitary police force	P90​	114​	−​	[50]​
Special Forces Group (SFG; used in the 1991Gulf War)	P90​	−​	−​	[1]​
Aarschot municipal police force	P90​	−​	−​	[51]​
Liège metropolitan police force (replaced the Uzi)	−​	−​	2002–​	[52][53]​
Zone de Police Boraine(Boussu/Colfontaine/Frameries/Quaregnon/Saint-Ghislain municipalities) police force	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[54]​
Brazil	Batalhão de Operações Policiais Especiais(BOPE) of the Military Police of Rio de Janeiro State	−​	−​	−​	[55]​
Canada	Joint Task Force 2 (JTF2) special group of the CFSpecial Operations Forces Command	−​	−​	2005–​	[56]​
Halifax Regional Police force in Halifax Regional Municipality, Nova Scotia	−​	−​	−​	[57]​
Service de police de la Ville de Montréal (SPVM) SWAT in Montreal, Quebec	−​	−​	−​	[58]​
Chile	Fuerzas Especiales (Special Forces)	−​	−​	−​	[59]​
Cyprus	Εθνική Φρουρά (Cypriot National Guard) special forces	P90​	350​	2000–​	[7][16]​
Colombia	Colombian National Army AFEUR Urban tactical group Batallón Guardia Presidencial Escort team Fuerzas de Despliegue Rápido (FUDRA) tactical assault & attack group	P90​	−​	1995​
Czech Republic	Útvar Rychlého Nasazení (URNA) of the Czech National Police	P90​	−​	2000s–​	[60]​
Dominican Republic	Cuerpo de Ayudantes Militares del Presidente de la República	−​	−​	−​	[61]​
Dominican Republic's counter-terrorist group	−​	150​	2002–​	[62]​
Fuerzas Armadas de la República Dominicana(Military of the Dominican Republic)	−​	−​	−​	[61]​
El Salvador	Comando Especial Antiterrorista (CEAT)	−​	350​	2002–​	[63]​
France	Commandement des Opérations Spéciales(COS) joint special operations command	−​	−​	−​	[1][64]​
GIGN counter-terrorism group of theGendarmerie Nationale	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[65]​
GIPN counter-terrorism group of the Police Nationale	−​	−​	−​	[66]​
RAID counter-terrorism group of the Police Nationale	−​	−​	−​	[66][67]​
Germany	Bundeskriminalamt (BKA; Federal Criminal Police Office) Sicherungsgruppe (SG; tasked with protection of the chancellor and other officials)	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[68]​
Georgia	Ministry of Internal Affairs	-​	−​	−​	[69][70]​
Greece	Ειδική Κατασταλτική Αντιτρομοκρατική Μονάδα (EKAM) unit of the Hellenic Police	−​	−​	−​	[71]​
Guatemala	Secretaría de Asuntos Administrativos de Seguridad de la Presidencia (SAAS)	P90​	20​	2009–​	[72]​
India	Special Protection Group (SPG; tasked with protection of the prime minister and other officials) and Special Group	P90, P90 TR​	−​	2008–​	[73]​
Indonesia	Komando Pasukan Katak (Kopaska) tactical diver group of the Indonesian Navy	−​	−​	−​	[74]​
Komando Pasukan Khusus (Kopassus) special forces group of the Indonesian Army	−​	−​	−​	[74]​
Ireland	Army Ranger Wing special forces of the Irish Defence Forces	−​	−​	2003–​	[75]​
Italy	Col Moschin 9o Reggimento d'Assalto Paracadutisti (9th Parachute Assault Regiment) special forces of the Italian Army	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[76]​
Israel	YAMAM unit of the Border Police	−​	−​	−​
Jordan	Jordanian Armed Forces	−​	−​	−​	[77]​
Lebanon	Forces de Sécurité Intérieure (FSI)	−​	−​	−​	[78]​
Libya	Military of Libya (used by Muammar Gaddafi's military forces in the 2011 Libyan civil war, and some of these examples were captured and used in the war by Libyan rebel forces)	−​	367​	2008–​	[3][79]​
Luxembourg	Unité Spéciale de la Police (USP) group of theGrand Ducal Police	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[45][80]​
Malaysia	Pasukan Khas Laut (PASKAL) special operations group of the Royal Malaysian Navy	−​	−​	−​	[81][82]​
Mali	National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad	−​	At least 1​	-​	[83]​
Mauritania	BASEP presidential security battalion	−​	−​	−​	[84]​
Mauritius	Various police forces	P90​	−​	−​	[85]​
Mexico	Ejército Méxicano (Mexican Army) Special Forces	P90​	−​	−​	[86]​
Estado Mayor Presidencial (EMP; Presidential Guard)	−​	−​	−​	[86]​
Fuerzas Especiales (FES) of the Mexican Navy	−​	−​	−​	[86]​
Policía Federal (PF; Federal Police) of theSecretaría de Seguridad Pública	−​	−​	−​	[72]​
Netherlands	Korps Commandotroepen (KCT) of the Royal Netherlands Army (replaced the Uzi)	P90 TR​	−​	2000–​	[16][87]​
Unit Interventie Mariniers (UIM) of theNetherlands Marine Corps	P90 TR​	−​	2001–​	[88]​
Brigade Speciale Beveiligingsopdrachten (BSB) of the Dutch Gendarmerie	−​	−​	−​	[89]​
Nigeria	National Intelligence Agency (NIA), State Security Service (SSS)	P90​	100​	2011–​	[90]​
Pakistan	Special Services Group	−​	−​	−​	[91]​
Papua New Guinea	Papua New Guinea Defence Force (PNGDF)	−​	−​	−​	[92]​
Peru	Grupo de Fuerzas Especiales (GRUFE) of thePeruvian Armed Forces	−​	−​	−​	[7][37][93]​
Fuerza de Operaciones Especiales (FOES) of thePeruvian Navy	P90​	53​	−​	[94][95]​
Paracaidistas del Ejército (Peruvian Armyparatroopers)	−​	−​	−​	[96]​
Philippines	Special Action Force (SAF) of the Philippine National Police	−​	−​	−​	[38]​
Poland	Jednostka Wojskowa Grom	P90 TR​	−​	2006–​	[97]​
Biuro Ochrony Rządu (used primarily for dignitary protection)	P90​	−​	2007–​	[98]​
Portugal	Grupo de Operações Especiais (GOE) of thePolícia de Segurança Pública	−​	−​	2002–​	[99]​
Romania	Detaşamentul de Intervenţie Rapidă special operations group of the Romanian Military	−​	−​	−​	[100]​
Russia	Ramzan Kadyrov Bodyguards.	−​	−​	−​	[101]​
Saudi Arabia		​	​	​	[102]​
Singapore	Singapore Armed Forces Commando Formation(CDO FN)	−​	​	2002–​	[103][104][105]​
Spain	Grupo Especial de Operaciones (GEO) of theCuerpo Nacional de Policía	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[106][107]​
Escuadrón de Zapadores Paracaidistas(EZAPAC) special group of the Ejército del Aire(Spanish Air Force)	P90, P90 TR​	−​	−​	[108]​
Suriname	Military of Suriname	−​	900​	2001–​	[62][102][109]​
Taiwan	Republic of China Armed Forces	P90​	−​	1992–​	[110][111]​
Thailand	กองทัพบกไทย (Royal Thai Army) special units	−​	−​	−​	[112]​
Trinidad and Tobago	Trinidad and Tobago Defence Force	−​	−​	−​	[102]​
Turkey	Karşı Atak Timi, prime minister's close protection teams.	−​	−​	−​	[113]​
Polis Özel Harekat special operations group of the General Directorate of Security	−​	−​	−​	[113][114]​
Jandarma Özel Asayiş Komutanlığı domestic special operations group of the Turkish Gendarmerie	−​	−​	−​	[115]​
Ukraine	Ukrainian police force (unspecified)	P90 LV​	30​	2008–​	[116]​
United States	U.S. Federal Protective Service branch of theDHS (formerly a branch of ICE)	P90​	−​	2001–​	[39][53][117]​
U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service	−​	−​	−​	[7]​
U.S. Secret Service	P90 TR​	−​	1990s–​	[7][118]​
Addison police department in Texas (first agency in the country to issue it to patrol cars)	PS90 TR​	52​	2007–​	[119][120][121]​
Alaska State Troopers in Alaska	P90 LV​	9​	−​	[122]​
Birmingham Police Department SWAT in Alabama	P90​	−​	−​	[123][124]​
Bryan police department SWAT in Texas	−​	−​	−​	[125]​
Chula Vista Police Department SWAT in California	P90 TR​	−​	−​	[126]​
Creve Coeur police department in Missouri	−​	−​	−​	[127]​
Edina police department in Minnesota	−​	11​	2005–​	[128]​
Houston Police Department SWAT in Texas (first local law enforcement agency in the country to adopt and use the weapon)	P90​	5​	1999–​	[21]​
Kutztown police department in Pennsylvania	−​	−​	−​	[129]​
Olathe police department ERT in Kansas	−​	23​	2001–​	[citation needed]​
Passaic County sheriff's department SWAT in New Jersey	−​	−​	2002–​	[28]​
Richland County Sheriff's Department SRT in South Carolina	−​	−​	2000–​	[130]​
Sioux Falls Police Department SWAT in South Dakota	−​	−​	−​	[131]​
Sparta Police Department in New Jersey	−​	−​	−​	[132]​
McLennan County Sheriff's Office in Texas	−​	−​	−​	​
Zapata County sheriff's department in Texas	−​	−​	−​	[133]​
Venezuela	Bodyguards assigned to the Ministerio del Poder Popular para Relaciones Exteriores	−​	−​	−​	[134]​
COPEMI unit of the Armada Bolivariana de Venezuela (Venezuelan Navy)	−​	−​	−​	[citation needed]​
CSAR unit of the Aviación Militar Venezolana(Venezuelan Air Force)	−​	−​	−​	[citation needed]​
Ejército Bolivariano de Venezuela (Venezuelan Bolivarian Army)	−​	−​	−​	[135]​
Guardia Nacional Bolivariana de Venezuela(Venezuelan Bolivarian National Guard) and the Anti-Extortion and Kidnapping National Command (CONAS)	−​	−​	−​	[citation needed]​
Various police forces	−​	−​	−​	[136][137]​
Vietnam	Binh chủng Đặc công (Special Forces) of thePeople's Army of Vietnam	P90​	−​	−​	[138]​

 

[The Heretic]

5.7 wouldn't even exist without the PS90. And that rifle is too eccentric to gain any real traction for the masses.

I'd take an FN 5.7 for the right price though. Unfortunately I don't see that happening.

At first I was hesitant about both - the PS90 ergos didn't look right to me and I still don't like the grips of any of the FN 5xx or Five Seven pistols - worse than the Glocks IMO. However, the PS90 ergos worked out once I tried it, and I can tolerate the Five Seven pistol with its low recoil the grips are not a huge problem.

Again, niche guns so 'eccentric' comes with the territory. IMO

 

[The Heretic]

I have looked at this. The caliber that I suspect is most similar is 7.62x25. I keep debating which to get for my encore. I have been looking at 5.7x28 but have occasionally seen encore barrels in that category.

I have several rifles in .223 including a bolt action and a Savage 24 with .223 over 20 ga. so I would love to be able to shoot 5.7x28 in those.

OTOH - downloading .223 with handloads would accomplish the same result, and more - but I would like to reload the 5.7x28 brass without worrying about getting the pressure curve just right to get decent results from the PS90 or Five Seven - from what I have read, that is an issue.

 

[Kruel J]

I have several rifles in .223 including a bolt action and a Savage 24 with .223 over 20 ga. so I would love to be able to shoot 5.7x28 in those.

OTOH - downloading .223 with handloads would accomplish the same result, and more - but I would like to reload the 5.7x28 brass without worrying about getting the pressure curve just right to get decent results from the PS90 or Five Seven - from what I have read, that is an issue.

What advantage does 5.7 offer over .223?

 

[Member 34319]

The P90 has always been a bucket list gun. Sadly if I were to get one, I would probably not shoot it much. I like to think I would, but 223/556 isn't much more recoil and much less expensive. You can load 40-50 grain 223/556 and it will far surpass the 5.7 loads even in shorter barrels.

A bolt gun in the caliber has always intrigued me. If someone made one, I'd certainly get it.

The 5.7 has a place in police and military use. They get the good munitions for it. The civilian market for it has never really taken off.

Between 22mag, 5.7x28 and 22tcm. 22tcm has the best ballistics and wins over the other two. However it is as rare as 5.7 in terms of finding ammo, if not worse.

Buy what you like, it's all preference anyways. I'm trying to be better myself at not judging guns for any reasons.

 

[Member 34319]

What advantage does 5.7 offer over .223?

If anything. Case length and size.

 

[The Heretic]

What advantage does 5.7 offer over .223?

Lower velocity.

I want to be able to reload the brass, but reloading it for reuse in the PS90 or Five Seven requires more patience than I have, from what I have read. So reloading it for a non-semi-auto would get around that. Also, for several reasons, I like to have non-semi-autos that shoot the same ammo as my defense guns - e.g., BLR for .308, CZ 527 for 7.62x39, Ruger bolt action and Savage 24 for .223 and so on.

Add to that, being able to use 5.7x28 and .223 in the same rifle would be nice. The same thing could be accomplished with a downloaded .223 though, except for all that 5.7x28 brass sitting around (I have thousands of spent brass).

That said, it is a low priority for me.

 

[Kruel J]

If anything. Case length and size.

Copy that. But that's not a real "advantage" for most and the ballistics of the .223 are far superior to the 5.7. Twice as heavy projectile going just as fast is hard to argue.