USMC select modern Pistol to replace the M-9

[dmancornell]

Some of the prototype CRG's did develop cracks. That is true. It is also true that they are on trial slides/recievers so there is no sense so it really does not mean much other than it has provided data points. Some say that the cracks developed due to the stress risers in the FCS and 1913.

The knee-jerk reaction is, "OH ME OH MY OH WHY OH WHY WERE THESE CHOSEN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!"

The sensible reaction is, what did the competition look like and why did the cracks develop?

I have not seen any report, rumor or whisper that there was any serious competition to begin with. In combination with the fact that 4 of 5 test-fired pistols developed cracks after a moderate number of rounds, the sensible conclusion is that this was a contract that was created solely for Colt, and they were too sloppy to even provide quality samples for evaluation.

Either that or their Q&R has dropped to the point they can't even supply solid 1911's any more, also a possibility for a company that exists largely to serve a single buyer.

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

first off ch139,im no rockstar. i didn't say to fix the problem reduce ammo capacity. if you cant hit your target with 15 rounds or 9 rounds it doesn't matter how many rounds you carry.with MARSOC those men CHOOSE THE WEAPONS SYSTEMS THEY WANT.they are special forces not general infantry.i will rephrase the COMFORTABLE comment, it was refuring to MARSOC or Recon .yadayada.another thing, you dont shoot to immobilize, you shoot to neutralize the threat.im not looking for casualties,i want dead bad guys piled up like a cord of wood.besides if you've gone to your secondary weapon,you are looking for an exit and get back to more ammo and reinforcements. just like clint smith says "you use you pistol to fight to a bigger gun". besides the FNP is big and bulky (ugly).double stack 45 pretty heavy ? not for me.

"Big and bulky" yet weights less, is an inch shorter but an inch taller than a 1911 - hmm...

Specs as listed by manufacturer:

FNP Tactical weight - 33.5 ounces / Overall length - 7.4" / Overall height - 6.5"

Colt MARSOC 1911 - 36.5 ounces / Overall length - 8.5" / Overall height - 5.5"

Seems like the only real difference would be a SA only vs. a SA/DA trigger, the ability to mount a RMR without machining, and the ability to carry twice as many rounds (and no stress cracks at 12k rounds...)

 

[Kentucky Windage]

I have not seen any report, rumor or whisper that there was any serious competition to begin with. In combination with the fact that 4 of 5 test-fired pistols developed cracks after a moderate number of rounds, the sensible conclusion is that this was a contract that was created solely for Colt, and they were too sloppy to even provide quality samples for evaluation.

Either that or their Q&R has dropped to the point they can't even supply solid 1911's any more, also a possibility for a company that exists largely to serve a single buyer.

Prototype slides are just that. Prototypes. Take Formula 1 and Prototype racing. They are great fun to watch and participate in, and they provide exellent data points. The only way they relate to your daily driven vehicle is in a long round about way they have provided data which eventually aided the development, technology, and production of the vehicle you drive. Prototypes are not the final product so assuming that we know what the final product is at this junction is pointless. We have all seen how well Caspain, Colt, and Springfield slides/receivers can hold up in harsh environments. So, lets see what happens with the new nomenclature.

The contract may have been written for Colt. Maybe. I have not seen evidence that confirms or denys that. Either way, the Marine Corps is going to end up with a solid pistol.

"Big and bulky" yet weights less, is an inch shorter but an inch taller than a 1911 - hmm...

Specs as listed by manufacturer:

FNP Tactical weight - 33.5 ounces / Overall length - 7.4" / Overall height - 6.5"

Colt MARSOC 1911 - 36.5 ounces / Overall length - 8.5" / Overall height - 5.5"

Seems like the only real difference would be a SA only vs. a SA/DA trigger, the ability to mount a RMR without machining, and the ability to carry twice as many rounds (and no stress cracks at 12k rounds...)

The FNP is bulky and uncomfortable. An RMR on a combat sidearm? No Sir, no thank you. That is one more thing to snag, and/or go wrong. You already have enough to snag when you are in your battle rattle - no need to make things any more cumbersome. You just got done posting about how the Marine Corps does not know how to pick a fighting gun for operators who get into gun fights. Often. Then...you toss in an RMR. For anyone who does not know what that is, an RMR is Trijicon's Ruggedized Miniature Reflex optic. If you are building an IPSC gun, then sure, an RMR is fun. IPSC however is a game. You would be making an already tall gun about 8" tall or close to it. Who will pay for an RMR? The good citizen of course. And the RMR, is not cheap.

Single stack magazines are easy to carry, load, insert into the gun, and maintain. A single stack gun is slim, lays flat, is comfortable, and is intuitive.

FN has put all the bells and whistles on the FNP that they can think of. They have targeted Glock, H&K, S&W, and SIG. Then they spent a short time comparing it to the 1911. And still, the gun has not caught on. About 2 years ago, if I recall correctly, there were a bunch of reviews that put the HK 45 and FNP against each other. A few reviews agreed and said the smart money is on the FN. Yet, people still purchased the HK 45. They were not swayed by the slightly lower price of the FNP.

Colt could produce CRG's without FCS which would eliminate stress risers up front. The same could be said for the 1913 - produce a standard dust cover.

For that matter, there was nothing really wrong with the M45 other than some of them are at a pretty advanced age. We used the MR07, 310R, and Dawson with success so I suppose we could always go back to that. Dawson no longer makes that rail but I am sure Mr. Dawson could be swayed into bringing it back into production. Caspian and Novak make a 1913 for the standard dust cover - the Dawson rail is much lower profile though which is why it was so well taken to.

At any rate, just because the Marine Corps is still going to run 1911's for the high speed guys does not mean that you have to. Run your Glock. Hell, run your FNP.

You could always write CMC Gen Amos and advise him that the Marine Corps has it all wrong. That sounds fun.

 

[dmancornell]

You could always write CMC Gen Amos and advise him that the Marine Corps has it all wrong. That sounds fun.

Why would he give a damn? He already spent our money.

My entire participation in this thread isn't the fact that a 1911 is a crummy pistol, it is quite capable when manufactured properly and placed in trained hands. The issue here is that taxpayer money is being used to buy a vastly overpriced, sub-optimal pistol to satisfy some political constituency.

Prototype slides are just that. Prototypes.

I find the use of the term "prototype" in regards to a century-old design, manufactured by a firm that has produced 1911's for decades, to be quite amusing.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

My entire participation in this thread isn't the fact that a 1911 is a crummy pistol, it is quite capable when manufactured properly and placed in trained hands. The issue here is that taxpayer money is being used to buy a vastly overpriced, sub-optimal pistol to satisfy some political constituency.

I find the use of the term "prototype" in regards to a century-old design, manufactured by a firm that has produced 1911's for decades, to be quite amusing.

And that is fine however, the pistols that were trialed were prototypes. How long they have been making said pistol is irrelevant. Every pistol that goes through such trials are prototypes. The CRG that you see in your local fun store is not the same CRG that the Marine Corps trialed. Something went wrong. We know that. There is no sense in continuing on about it. Civvys with CRG's have successfully put well more than 12k rounds through their CRG's so again, the question is not, can this pistol hold up. The question is what happened to the 4 test pistols that had failures. I am sure that Colt will make changes - be that steel composition, the process etc. The Marine Corps will surely mandate changes, which they have probably already done.

The contract is not really over priced. Take the firing pin for example. The current nomenclature calls for 1200 firing pins per year. The firing pin used costs $6.95 per unit.

The amount of money being spent pertaining to these pistols is hardly even a drop in the bucket. There are many, many other things that tax dollars are being wasted on that are far more expensive that the citizen should be concerned about.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

It's a shame this thread devolved into a debate about this firearm or that. The point is that the USMC is buying a bunch of Colt 1911s. I love it. Very cool. But the number being purchased isn't enough to say they're replacing their handgun arsenal. In the scale of defense spending, $25 million is toilet money.

 

[dmancornell]

The amount of money being spent pertaining to these pistols is hardly even a drop in the bucket. There are many, many other things that tax dollars are being wasted on that are far more expensive that the citizen should be concerned about.

This purchase is symptomatic of the government's total lack of regard for fiscal responsibility, doesn't matter that the actual dollar value is insignificant compared with other contracts.

Done with this thread, as always the ignorance of the all-metal fetishists/Made-in-America xenophobes is very amusing.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

It's a shame this thread devolved into a debate about this firearm or that. The point is that the USMC is buying a bunch of Colt 1911s. I love it. Very cool. But the number being purchased isn't enough to say they're replacing their handgun arsenal. In the scale of defense spending, $25 million is toilet money.

This purchase is symptomatic of the government's total lack of regard for fiscal responsibility, doesn't matter that the actual dollar value is insignificant compared with other contracts.

Done with this thread, as always the ignorance of the all-metal fetishists/Made-in-America xenophobes is very amusing.

As Mr. AlphaCoyote put it, this is toilet money.

Are you now saying the 1911 is not capable of performing? I guess you should write a letter to CMC Gen Amos and advise him that the Marine Corps does not know a thing about gun fights.

Like the M45, these 1911's are not intended to replace the existing M9's or M9A1's. These 1911's are for the MEU's, Amphibious Reconnaissance, and MARSOC. There is nothing wrong with the Marine Corps getting new kit. When the Army is training on energy weapons at BMT the MEU's will get the Army's M4's that they were not able to sell.

 

[ch139]

what exactly makes this pistol your last choice? And what makes it not good for combat? i think people forget sidearms are SECONDARY WEAPONS! If you run out of ammo with your RIFLE (primary weapon),your in deep crap any ways. it doesn't matter what pistol you have.you train yourself to be proficient in what ever weapon system your comfortable with.the purpose of shooting is hitting and if you cant do that with 15 rounds or 9 it doesn't matter.the final point.

EXACTLY!

...and for the price of one of these Colts they could probably have two to four "other" pistols that are lighter, hold more ammunition are not as finicky and will hold up just as well if not better. As far as a handgun goes in the hands of the military, most of the shooting is done in practice; when it is talked about these guns seeing tens of thousands of rounds going down range, thats all in practice. And then the gun breaks. As stated, most of the time the MEU(SOC) 1911s that are being fielded now have to come out of the hands of the shooters and go back to Quantico for repair. Love the 1911 or not (does anyone not love the 1911) it is not an easy gun to work on/service. It is an old design that has been "tuned-up" to fill the need and is not something easily serviced or repaired in the field. The Marines are going to have the same problems with the new Colts as they do with the MEU(SOC) 1911s. I imagine they would probably have the same problems with a Smith, or Glock, or Sig, or HK or... Thing is, many of those are a lot easier to work on than a 1911 and if they're not serviceable in the field, pull another one out of its plastic box and set the broken one aside - they can't do that with the current MEU(SOC) 1911s and aren't going to be able to do that wit the new Colts.

I absolutely love 1911s, have for a long time. Have, have had, and with any luck will have many of them. Saved my bacon on a couple different occasions when a line was drawn in the sand. The 1911 is not the best solution for their particular problem. Thats all. This has turned into a 1911 vs. Glock thread and that is unfortunate.

Prototype slides are just that. Prototypes.

Thats cute; Colt has to build a prototype slide for a 1911?

 

[nitestocker]

i would go with the glock not just because of the mag capacity but for the price of the 1911 you get 2 .5 glocks for the price of one 1911 try and find a 1911 for 550.00 thats as dependable as the glock plus the difference in mag capacity

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

Prototype slides are just that. Prototypes.


The FNP is bulky and uncomfortable. An RMR on a combat sidearm? No Sir, no thank you. That is one more thing to snag, and/or go wrong. You already have enough to snag when you are in your battle rattle - no need to make things any more cumbersome. You just got done posting about how the Marine Corps does not know how to pick a fighting gun for operators who get into gun fights. Often. Then...you toss in an RMR. For anyone who does not know what that is, an RMR is Trijicon's Ruggedized Miniature Reflex optic. If you are building an IPSC gun, then sure, an RMR is fun. IPSC however is a game. You would be making an already tall gun about 8" tall or close to it. Who will pay for an RMR? The good citizen of course. And the RMR, is not cheap.

Single stack magazines are easy to carry, load, insert into the gun, and maintain. A single stack gun is slim, lays flat, is comfortable, and is intuitive.

FN has put all the bells and whistles on the FNP that they can think of. They have targeted Glock, H&K, S&W, and SIG. Then they spent a short time comparing it to the 1911. And still, the gun has not caught on. About 2 years ago, if I recall correctly, there were a bunch of reviews that put the HK 45 and FNP against each other. A few reviews agreed and said the smart money is on the FN. Yet, people still purchased the HK 45. They were not swayed by the slightly lower price of the FNP.

Colt could produce CRG's without FCS which would eliminate stress risers up front. The same could be said for the 1913 - produce a standard dust cover.

For that matter, there was nothing really wrong with the M45 other than some of them are at a pretty advanced age. We used the MR07, 310R, and Dawson with success so I suppose we could always go back to that. Dawson no longer makes that rail but I am sure Mr. Dawson could be swayed into bringing it back into production. Caspian and Novak make a 1913 for the standard dust cover - the Dawson rail is much lower profile though which is why it was so well taken to.

At any rate, just because the Marine Corps is still going to run 1911's for the high speed guys does not mean that you have to. Run your Glock. Hell, run your FNP.

You could always write CMC Gen Amos and advise him that the Marine Corps has it all wrong. That sounds fun.

First, these "competitions" are designed for manfacturers to submit their best work, be tortured, than a winner selceted from who ever is left standing. Government contact competitions are not intended to be a "submit your protype that will fail before testing is complete" type of arrangement.

Second, FNP is bulky and uncomfortable is as objective of a statement as "red-heads are hotter than blondes" - it's your opinion. They have the option of changing backstrap sizes to fit different shooters hand size - something not offered by a 1911.

Third, an RMR is only for games and competitions - Seriously!?!? Too cumbersome - wow! I suppose you're against Eotechs, ACOGs, Elcans, M68's, PEQ-15's, Surefires, PVS-14/15s, and all the other "cumbersome" items EVERY operator utilizes too?

Fourth, who will pay for the RMR - again, are you being serious? The same people who pay for the above mentioned equipment that gets ordered without a seconds thought regarding who will pay for it - tax payers. Are you suggesting the government wants to buy things for it's war fighters, but doesn't out of concern for who will pay for it? laughable!

Ffth, Single stack magazines are better? Better at what? Holding less rounds - sure, you can have that one. The rest of your comments are again subjective opinions. I think double stack magazines are better because during speed relaods there is more area to grasp when drawing from a pouch - does that make them better - no. Does their ability to hold more rounds make them better - yes!

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Thats cute; Colt has to build a prototype slide for a 1911?

All guns that are trialed are prototypes. Be that a SIG, a Beretta, or a Colt.

First, these "competitions" are designed for manfacturers to submit their best work, be tortured, than a winner selceted from who ever is left standing. Government contact competitions are not intended to be a "submit your protype that will fail before testing is complete" type of arrangement.

Second, FNP is bulky and uncomfortable is as objective of a statement as "red-heads are hotter than blondes" - it's your opinion. They have the option of changing backstrap sizes to fit different shooters hand size - something not offered by a 1911.

Third, an RMR is only for games and competitions - Seriously!?!? Too cumbersome - wow! I suppose you're against Eotechs, ACOGs, Elcans, M68's, PEQ-15's, Surefires, PVS-14/15s, and all the other "cumbersome" items EVERY operator utilizes too?

Fourth, who will pay for the RMR - again, are you being serious? The same people who pay for the above mentioned equipment that gets ordered without a seconds thought regarding who will pay for it - tax payers. Are you suggesting the government wants to buy things for it's war fighters, but doesn't out of concern for who will pay for it? laughable!

Ffth, Single stack magazines are better? Better at what? Holding less rounds - sure, you can have that one. The rest of your comments are again subjective opinions. I think double stack magazines are better because during speed relaods there is more area to grasp when drawing from a pouch - does that make them better - no. Does their ability to hold more rounds make them better - yes!

Not offered by the 1911? Take your pick of MSH and grip safety for a 1911. Changing the way it fits your hand is not hard. FN did not come up with this concept - it has been around for some time. Trigger reach is too far? Not a problem. You can run a short trigger, a long trigger, a standard trigger or anything in between. I would pick an HK 45 over an FNP any day of the week. It is slim(er) than an FNP, lays flatter, and it more comfortable. In addition to that, the HK P30/45 have interchangeable side panels which the FNP, does not. Do you have any relevant experience with the 1911 platform? You statements imply that you do not. Stating that the 1911 platform has no fitment flexibility for example.

No, I do not want an RMR on my sidearm. I do not want it to snag on another weaopn, on battle rattle, or anything. If it comes down to drawing your sidearm you are likely in a dire situation. Getting that gun into the fight quickly is important. Having a windshield attached to it is rediculous.

An optic on your primary weapon system relates in no way to having and optic on your sidearm. It does not end at the sidearm. You have to holster the weapon. Not many are going to carry on a chest rig if you have an RMR on your already tall FNP. A thigh rig is a possibility if you want to look like Robocop. A big bulky pistol in a big bulky holster. Sure, that sounds just like what the Infantryman needs. More bulk. More odd ends to snag on himself and his environment.

It sounds like you know more about gun fighting than the rest of the world. You are welcome to advise the LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEU's; Recon; MEUSOC, FBI HRT, and FBI SWAT, Army SF so on and so forth that they have it all wrong and that you can provide them with the correct answer when they ask which fighting gun they need.

If you do not think an FNP is bulky and uncomfortable, you must be used carrying something like a 2x4. Not a single person that has shot the FNP 45 has put it down and thought, Oh yes, this is the one. Nice and slim. Very comfortable. At least not people that I have spoken with.

Double stack magazines, as the name implies, are much wider than a single stack. Single stacks insert, quickly. Since they are slim they lay flat which makes carrying multiples easy. Take Mr. Todd Jarrett for example. I have seen a lot of people perform some pretty quick magazine changes on double stack guns. I have never seen anyone perform a magazine change on a double stack quicker than Mr. Jarrett.

I do not know how many gun fights you have been in with your sidearm however, I find it very hard to believe that you just stood around and spent all 15/17 rounds from your Beretta without getting to a hard point or having an enemy combatant put you on the deck. Even Mr. Larry Vickers (if you are suggesting you know more about gun fighting than him...that will tell us a lot) suggest a sidearm of .45-caliber with a magazine that holds 8-10 rounds. I seem to recall the Air Force recently putting feelers out for a new sidearm and specifying the interest was in a .45-caliber weapon. The Air Force.

A 9mm is a nice proposition. It is. You can cram more rounds into a double stack 9mm or .45. That is true. But, more is not better. Better is better.

How can you be, "Concerned" with cost yet suggest RMR's for at least 12k pistols?

These pistols are for the high speed guys. They are for guys who shoot upwards of 20k rounds from their pistols on their pre deployment cycles. They have chosen the 1911 again. Maybe, they do not know anything about gun fighting. Maybe, they do not know what makes a good pistol. Or maybe, just maybe, they are onto something.


Why are you (any of you) so upset that the Marine Corps chose the 1911? Were you upset when the Army purchased boat loads of M9's in 2009/2010? Were you upset in 2005 when the Army spent over 31 milllion on an M9 contract with Beretta? Is it upsetting that the Marine Corps has thousands of M9A1's as well? Being upset over the sidearm that the Marine Corps has been and will be providing for particular units does not make much sense.

 

[ch139]

...Even Mr. Larry Vickers (if you are suggesting you know more about gun fighting than him...that will tell us a lot) suggest a sidearm of .45-caliber with a magazine that holds 8-10 rounds.

Funny you mention Larry Vickers

In spite of all the time he has spent with a 1911, as an operator, trainer and gunsmith, Vickers considers the 1911 to be only marginally reliable by modern standards; and it takes a good deal of gunsmithing to make it reliable and maintain it in that condition. The 1911 is an aficionado's pistol, Vickers points out, not a service pistol. If you are going to shoot a 1911 in this day and age, Vickers believes you either need to become your own armorer or you need to find another gun. Vickers went as far as to say that there are some people who should not even own a 1911. He quoted Ken Hackathorn in stating, "If you treat your handguns like you treat your lawnmower, get a Glock."

That Larry guy probably doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Funny you mention Larry Vickers


That Larry guy probably doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

He did say that. I do not think anyone is arguing otherwise. He is discouraging the average gun owner from running a 1911 as their primary gun. At least he was in 2008 - and he still says that.

Regardless, he recommends a .45-caliber sidearm with a magazine that holds 8-10 rounds. I believe it was about 2007 when he stated this recommendation.

 

[slicediceputinrice]

why such fuss over which weapon the Military uses to execute civilians with?

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

All guns that are trialed are prototypes. Be that a SIG, a Beretta, or a Colt.




Not offered by the 1911? Take your pick of MSH and grip safety for a 1911. Changing the way it fits your hand is not hard. FN did not come up with this concept - it has been around for some time. Trigger reach is too far? Not a problem. You can run a short trigger, a long trigger, a standard trigger or anything in between. I would pick an HK 45 over an FNP any day of the week. It is slim(er) than an FNP, lays flatter, and it more comfortable. In addition to that, the HK P30/45 have interchangeable side panels which the FNP, does not. Do you have any relevant experience with the 1911 platform? You statements imply that you do not. Stating that the 1911 platform has no fitment flexibility for example.

No, I do not want an RMR on my sidearm. I do not want it to snag on another weaopn, on battle rattle, or anything. If it comes down to drawing your sidearm you are likely in a dire situation. Getting that gun into the fight quickly is important. Having a windshield attached to it is rediculous.

An optic on your primary weapon system relates in no way to having and optic on your sidearm. It does not end at the sidearm. You have to holster the weapon. Not many are going to carry on a chest rig if you have an RMR on your already tall FNP. A thigh rig is a possibility if you want to look like Robocop. A big bulky pistol in a big bulky holster. Sure, that sounds just like what the Infantryman needs. More bulk. More odd ends to snag on himself and his environment.

It sounds like you know more about gun fighting than the rest of the world. You are welcome to advise the LAPD SWAT, USSOCOM, USMC Det-1, USMC MEU's; Recon; MEUSOC, FBI HRT, and FBI SWAT, Army SF so on and so forth that they have it all wrong and that you can provide them with the correct answer when they ask which fighting gun they need.

If you do not think an FNP is bulky and uncomfortable, you must be used carrying something like a 2x4. Not a single person that has shot the FNP 45 has put it down and thought, Oh yes, this is the one. Nice and slim. Very comfortable. At least not people that I have spoken with.

Double stack magazines, as the name implies, are much wider than a single stack. Single stacks insert, quickly. Since they are slim they lay flat which makes carrying multiples easy. Take Mr. Todd Jarrett for example. I have seen a lot of people perform some pretty quick magazine changes on double stack guns. I have never seen anyone perform a magazine change on a double stack quicker than Mr. Jarrett.

I do not know how many gun fights you have been in with your sidearm however, I find it very hard to believe that you just stood around and spent all 15/17 rounds from your Beretta without getting to a hard point or having an enemy combatant put you on the deck. Even Mr. Larry Vickers (if you are suggesting you know more about gun fighting than him...that will tell us a lot) suggest a sidearm of .45-caliber with a magazine that holds 8-10 rounds. I seem to recall the Air Force recently putting feelers out for a new sidearm and specifying the interest was in a .45-caliber weapon. The Air Force.

A 9mm is a nice proposition. It is. You can cram more rounds into a double stack 9mm or .45. That is true. But, more is not better. Better is better.

How can you be, "Concerned" with cost yet suggest RMR's for at least 12k pistols?

These pistols are for the high speed guys. They are for guys who shoot upwards of 20k rounds from their pistols on their pre deployment cycles. They have chosen the 1911 again. Maybe, they do not know anything about gun fighting. Maybe, they do not know what makes a good pistol. Or maybe, just maybe, they are onto something.


Why are you (any of you) so upset that the Marine Corps chose the 1911? Were you upset when the Army purchased boat loads of M9's in 2009/2010? Were you upset in 2005 when the Army spent over 31 milllion on an M9 contract with Beretta? Is it upsetting that the Marine Corps has thousands of M9A1's as well? Being upset over the sidearm that the Marine Corps has been and will be providing for particular units does not make much sense.

Oh man...

The grip options that come with the Hk are better than what come with FNP - I agree. I also like the options that come with M&P, however the ability the change grip panels with either of those 3 handguns is NOTHING like what it takes to change components on a 1911 for one, and for two, when you open the package of a 1911 there are no other grip modifications that come with it. It is what is, and if you want it to fit differently, then you have to source those parts and disassemble your weapon and install them. Not the end of the world, but no where as easy as it is with the FNP, Hk, or the M&P, or the gen 4 Glock for that matter. Thats a pretty poor comparison.

If having an RMR mounted on your sidearm slows your draw measurably or gets snagged on your kit that is a seperate issue that you would want to address by selecting better gear, or training more with what you have. I know while wearing a plate carrier, first line belt, and holster and RMR is not noticeable. Might want to look into one of these:

<broken link removed>

I know a decent amount about gun fighting - I don't claim to know more than anyone in particular, but I do know enough to weigh in on the subject. And I can tell you that a 1911 in the hands of an operator in the Army is RARE! Sniper teams in Ranger battalion - use the Glock, Cag Operatators - the Glock - they even have their own nifty FDE Glock magazines. There might be a few 1911's floating around, but Group hardly needs to be lumped in with the rest of your examples. FBI HRT - common... they're law enforment, not war fighters. They don't conduct sustained operations in the mountains of A-stan where reliability is key, and you dont get to go home every night and polish your sidearm while drinking a beer and watching TV. In the end - less Operators carry 1911's than those who do - maybe they're onto something...

Todd Jarrett - seriously?!? Thats quite the example for someone who was just saying how vastly different IPSC and whatever other competitions are from gun fighting, and combat. Wonder if he'd be as fast with his competitive mag changes if he was being shot at rather than playing a game?

How many gun fights have I been in - more than enough for my tastes. Did I stand there and unload 15 rounds without seeking cover - obvioulsy not, but if I had would that have made the Colt weapon submissions NOT have suffered a catestrophic failure?

Am I suggesting I know more than Larry Vickers? Hardly, but it seems he and I share more of the same perspective on a 1911 as a combat gun on todays modern battlefield than you might have thought after that quote of his was posted huh?

Why are you discussing the 9mm? NO ONE is suggesting using a 9mm. The only handguns I feel would be suitable for a combat sidearm are .45 ACP - even the Air Force seems to understand that.

Where did I say I was concerned with the cost of adding an RMR to an issued sidearm? You were the one who asked who was going to pay for it. I said the same people who pay for all the other cool toys we get to use. I'm all for it if the end user wants it.

Was I upset when the Army renewed its contract with Beretta - yes, very! apparently you didn't read my first post in this thread.

It's upsetting to see any foreign owned company earning profits off the US military.

 

[swoop]

why such fuss over which weapon the Military uses to execute civilians with?

What the hell does that mean?

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Oh man...

The grip options that come with the Hk are better than what come with FNP - I agree. I also like the options that come with M&P, however the ability the change grip panels with either of those 3 handguns is NOTHING like what it takes to change components on a 1911 for one, and for two, when you open the package of a 1911 there are no other grip modifications that come with it. It is what is, and if you want it to fit differently, then you have to source those parts and disassemble your weapon and install them. Not the end of the world, but no where as easy as it is with the FNP, Hk, or the M&P, or the gen 4 Glock for that matter. Thats a pretty poor comparison.

If having an RMR mounted on your sidearm slows your draw measurably or gets snagged on your kit that is a seperate issue that you would want to address by selecting better gear, or training more with what you have. I know while wearing a plate carrier, first line belt, and holster and RMR is not noticeable. Might want to look into one of these:

<broken link removed>

I know a decent amount about gun fighting - I don't claim to know more than anyone in particular, but I do know enough to weigh in on the subject. And I can tell you that a 1911 in the hands of an operator in the Army is RARE! Sniper teams in Ranger battalion - use the Glock, Cag Operatators - the Glock - they even have their own nifty FDE Glock magazines. There might be a few 1911's floating around, but Group hardly needs to be lumped in with the rest of your examples. FBI HRT - common... they're law enforment, not war fighters. They don't conduct sustained operations in the mountains of A-stan where reliability is key, and you dont get to go home every night and polish your sidearm while drinking a beer and watching TV. In the end - less Operators carry 1911's than those who do - maybe they're onto something...

Todd Jarrett - seriously?!? Thats quite the example for someone who was just saying how vastly different IPSC and whatever other competitions are from gun fighting, and combat. Wonder if he'd be as fast with his competitive mag changes if he was being shot at rather than playing a game?

How many gun fights have I been in - more than enough for my tastes. Did I stand there and unload 15 rounds without seeking cover - obvioulsy not, but if I had would that have made the Colt weapon submissions NOT have suffered a catestrophic failure?

Am I suggesting I know more than Larry Vickers? Hardly, but it seems he and I share more of the same perspective on a 1911 as a combat gun on todays modern battlefield than you might have thought after that quote of his was posted huh?

Why are you discussing the 9mm? NO ONE is suggesting using a 9mm. The only handguns I feel would be suitable for a combat sidearm are .45 ACP - even the Air Force seems to understand that.

Where did I say I was concerned with the cost of adding an RMR to an issued sidearm? You were the one who asked who was going to pay for it. I said the same people who pay for all the other cool toys we get to use. I'm all for it if the end user wants it.

Was I upset when the Army renewed its contract with Beretta - yes, very! apparently you didn't read my first post in this thread.

It's upsetting to see any foreign owned company earning profits off the US military.

I have RMR's. I even have one for a revolver. Would I slap it on any of my sidearms before going into harms way? No.
The weight of an RMR is not the issue. The fact that it is shaped like a windshield is. If you are put on the deck you are not going to be in an optimal position to draw. If you personally want to slow your draw down an introduce points of failure in your gun fighting, "System" then I suppose that is fine. I however will stack the odds in my favor. The only time I would use an RMR or T1 on my sidearm is if I am setting up to breach as the shield man in a SWAT environment. In that case my sidearm would be my primary weapon and I would possibly have an optic to aid in my sight picture because my other hand would be holding a shield - and I would have battle buddies behind me with rifles and shotguns. That being said, I would still carry another sidearm as a backup which would not have a windshield attached to it. If you want to run an RMR etc on your sidearm, then by all means, have at it.

You are entertaining. I concur with what Mr. Vickers said. I have not contested that at all. Would I recommend a 1911 as a duty weapon for the average enthusiast, average LEO? No, I would not. That being said, there is nothing average about the boys in MEU's, Recon, and MARSOC. To argue otherwise is just naive.

I it not very likely that your Colt would develop cracked slides in a gun fight simply because the 4 guns that did are prototype guns. The guns that the Marine Corps will get will not be the guns that were trialed. That is the thing about trialing things. They are trials.

Mr. Jarrett was simply and example. Example being the operative word. In fact, I even said, "For example."

Army SF has been spotted running around with G22's lately. Does that mean that a .40-caliber is now the end all be all?

When an enemy combatant puts you on the deck, I am sure you will appreciate the medic or Corpsman who comes to your aid when you are laying on your holster with only your opposite arm in an effective state trying to pull your sidearm out but you cannot because your windshield has snagged on other parts of your limp body, and he tells you that you are having issues drawing because of your training.

To change the MSH on a 1911 a punch is requried. To change the grips on a 1911 a screw drivers is requried. To change the tang on a 1911 a punch is required; as well as a screw driver if said gun has an ambi safety.
It is not hard and it does not take a lot of time. Unless of course you have to fit the MSH etc - that will take up a few minutes. As easy as other polymer options? A 1911 is more involved. We already knew that. People have had problems with not fully seating the side panels of the HK grips fully and having them work lose to the point of popping off while firing. Obviously that is operator error. The same thing could be said for the 1911. Changing the backstrap on a Glock or M&P is easier. No one is arguing that though. Again, we already knew that.

Reliability is not key to the FBI and the Marine Corps? Well that is certainly new.

I am not sure what point you are really trying to argue. It sounds like you believe the Marine Corps should be like the Army and outfit their operators with Glocks?

 

[slicediceputinrice]

What the hell does that mean?

do you really need an explanation? neither 9mm nor .45 will penetrate body armor, oh wait I forgot our military does not fight armored combatants or real armies at all, so the only use they could get out of a SIDEARM is to execute civilians and other political prisoners/military aged men, etc. Now maybe this reply will stir up the hornets nest, is that what you wanted me to do with my explanation? because that is how I feel. period.

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

I have RMR's. I even have one for a revolver. Would I slap it on any of my sidearms before going into harms way? No.
The weight of an RMR is not the issue. The fact that it is shaped like a windshield is. If you are put on the deck you are not going to be in an optimal position to draw. If you personally want to slow your draw down an introduce points of failure in your gun fighting, "System" then I suppose that is fine. I however will stack the odds in my favor. The only time I would use an RMR or T1 on my sidearm is if I am setting up to breach as the shield man in a SWAT environment. In that case my sidearm would be my primary weapon and I would possibly have an optic to aid in my sight picture because my other hand would be holding a shield - and I would have battle buddies behind me with rifles and shotguns. That being said, I would still carry another sidearm as a backup which would not have a windshield attached to it. If you want to run an RMR etc on your sidearm, then by all means, have at it.

You are entertaining. I concur with what Mr. Vickers said. I have not contested that at all. Would I recommend a 1911 as a duty weapon for the average enthusiast, average LEO? No, I would not. That being said, there is nothing average about the boys in MEU's, Recon, and MARSOC. To argue otherwise is just naive.

I it not very likely that your Colt would develop cracked slides in a gun fight simply because the 4 guns that did are prototype guns. The guns that the Marine Corps will get will not be the guns that were trialed. That is the thing about trialing things. They are trials.

Mr. Jarrett was simply and example. Example being the operative word. In fact, I even said, "For example."

Army SF has been spotted running around with G22's lately. Does that mean that a .40-caliber is now the end all be all?

When an enemy combatant puts you on the deck, I am sure you will appreciate the medic or Corpsman who comes to your aid when you are laying on your holster with only your opposite arm in an effective state trying to pull your sidearm out but you cannot because your windshield has snagged on other parts of your limp body, and he tells you that you are having issues drawing because of your training.

To change the MSH on a 1911 a punch is requried. To change the grips on a 1911 a screw drivers is requried. To change the tang on a 1911 a punch is required; as well as a screw driver if said gun has an ambi safety.
It is not hard and it does not take a lot of time. Unless of course you have to fit the MSH etc - that will take up a few minutes. As easy as other polymer options? A 1911 is more involved. We already knew that. People have had problems with not fully seating the side panels of the HK grips fully and having them work lose to the point of popping off while firing. Obviously that is operator error. The same thing could be said for the 1911. Changing the backstrap on a Glock or M&P is easier. No one is arguing that though. Again, we already knew that.

Reliability is not key to the FBI and the Marine Corps? Well that is certainly new.

I am not sure what point you are really trying to argue. It sounds like you believe the Marine Corps should be like the Army and outfit their operators with Glocks?

Sigh...

Yes, the Army's SF runs around with G22s faily often, as does CAG, Battalion favors the G19 - Ok, so? You were the one who lumped SF into your example of groups who use the 1911. I simply stated the Army units didn't belong on your list. Who said anyting about the .40 cal being the end all do all of anything? I know I didn't. Infact I said a .45 ACP would be the ideal caliber for a combat handgun. Do you have an argument for that point of view also?

A 1911 takes a few tools to change the ergos, the other handguns in question do not - edge: not the 1911.

Grip panel tangent - irrelavant.

Reliability tangent - re-read what I wrote, not what you want me to have said. The FBI does not conduct sustained operations in terrain like the mountains of Afghanistan, or the deserts of Iraq. They conduct their mission and go home. They are not required to engage in a fire fight then stay on target and secure and area, or live with an indigenous population for extended periods of time without support from the rear. If something fails with their equipment it can be attended to in a more timely fashion. Obviously reliability is important to the FBI but to confuse the degree of stress put on equipment between a war fighter and a LEO is laughable.

Lastly, I'll say it again - it's very clear that you have not read all I've wrote in this thread. My first post stated that I do not want to see a Glock, or a Beretta in the hands of a member of the DOD. I would like our military to be outfitted with a US made, US manufactured, US owned company's weapon and to be clear, I would like it to be a .45 ACP. Simply put though, there are FAR better options available than a 1911. And for the last time, it is unacceptable that a company who has such a fan-boy following as Colt does to not be able to build a slide, spring cup, feed ramp, or recoil spring that doesn't fail at 12k rounds with all the experience they have. Being a Prototype is not an excuse - did they reinvent the wheel? No. It's a 1911 slide - they SHOULD have that down by now. They SHOULD be able to submit a version that wont have 4 catastrophic failures in the sub-12k round count range.

I did forget to mention in my last response after you questioned my knowledge or experience with 1911's - I own two and have put more rounds through them then many will fire in a life time. They're nice range guns, that is all. My experience with them is deep enough to know I wouldn't want one on my hip after crossing a river, or 3 to 5 second rushing through sand or dirt, or doing a beach landing, or after conducting an extended patrol in the desert. Though I have never had a chance to fire one after an Iraqi wind storm packed it full of moon dust, I have my suspicsions how it would turn out.