USMC select modern Pistol to replace the M-9

[ArBrnSnpr]

do you really need an explanation? neither 9mm nor .45 will penetrate body armor, oh wait I forgot our military does not fight armored combatants or real armies at all, so the only use they could get out of a SIDEARM is to execute civilians and other political prisoners/military aged men, etc. Now maybe this reply will stir up the hornets nest, is that what you wanted me to do with my explanation? because that is how I feel. period.

So wearing body armor makes an opposing force a "real army?" How many cases of "executions" using sidearms are you aware of?
I am aware of none.

 

[dough448]

I congratulate the USMC for returning to a US made sidearm (providing Colt doesn't outsource). Glocks and FNs are fine pistols in their own right but I think most of the discussion will revert to 9mm vs. 45 Auto

 

[Darknight]

Haji doesn't wear body armor...

True, the weight of body armor would slow down those little 12 year olds. Don't you think?

 

[Darknight]

i would go with the glock not just because of the mag capacity but for the price of the 1911 you get 2 .5 glocks for the price of one 1911 try and find a 1911 for 550.00 thats as dependable as the glock plus the difference in mag capacity

$550 is retail; LEO's get Glocks for $400. No tax. Also the military gets special pricing below that, so it's more like 3.5 to 1. I don't really care about the whole Glock vs. 1911 issue, I am just correcting the numbers.

 

[swoop]

do you really need an explanation? neither 9mm nor .45 will penetrate body armor, oh wait I forgot our military does not fight armored combatants or real armies at all, so the only use they could get out of a SIDEARM is to execute civilians and other political prisoners/military aged men, etc. Now maybe this reply will stir up the hornets nest, is that what you wanted me to do with my explanation? because that is how I feel. period.

So you like guns, but hate our military? Do you really believe that our fighting men carry side arms to murder women, children, old men ect? What's wrong with you man?

 

[dmancornell]

So you like guns, but hate our military?

They're related?

 

[swoop]

They're related?

Losing a couple of world wars might have put a kink in your 31 trades. Don't ya think!

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Sigh...

Yes, the Army's SF runs around with G22s faily often, as does CAG, Battalion favors the G19 - Ok, so? You were the one who lumped SF into your example of groups who use the 1911. I simply stated the Army units didn't belong on your list. Who said anyting about the .40 cal being the end all do all of anything? I know I didn't. Infact I said a .45 ACP would be the ideal caliber for a combat handgun. Do you have an argument for that point of view also?

A 1911 takes a few tools to change the ergos, the other handguns in question do not - edge: not the 1911.

Grip panel tangent - irrelavant.

Reliability tangent - re-read what I wrote, not what you want me to have said. The FBI does not conduct sustained operations in terrain like the mountains of Afghanistan, or the deserts of Iraq. They conduct their mission and go home. They are not required to engage in a fire fight then stay on target and secure and area, or live with an indigenous population for extended periods of time without support from the rear. If something fails with their equipment it can be attended to in a more timely fashion. Obviously reliability is important to the FBI but to confuse the degree of stress put on equipment between a war fighter and a LEO is laughable.

Lastly, I'll say it again - it's very clear that you have not read all I've wrote in this thread. My first post stated that I do not want to see a Glock, or a Beretta in the hands of a member of the DOD. I would like our military to be outfitted with a US made, US manufactured, US owned company's weapon and to be clear, I would like it to be a .45 ACP. Simply put though, there are FAR better options available than a 1911. And for the last time, it is unacceptable that a company who has such a fan-boy following as Colt does to not be able to build a slide, spring cup, feed ramp, or recoil spring that doesn't fail at 12k rounds with all the experience they have. Being a Prototype is not an excuse - did they reinvent the wheel? No. It's a 1911 slide - they SHOULD have that down by now. They SHOULD be able to submit a version that wont have 4 catastrophic failures in the sub-12k round count range.

I did forget to mention in my last response after you questioned my knowledge or experience with 1911's - I own two and have put more rounds through them then many will fire in a life time. They're nice range guns, that is all. My experience with them is deep enough to know I wouldn't want one on my hip after crossing a river, or 3 to 5 second rushing through sand or dirt, or doing a beach landing, or after conducting an extended patrol in the desert. Though I have never had a chance to fire one after an Iraqi wind storm packed it full of moon dust, I have my suspicsions how it would turn out.

Sure I have read everything that you have quoted. However, much of your responses are emotional and insults which are not worth rectifying. Generally speaking a response filled with, "Oh yeah!" type answers and exclamation points are not thought out level headed responses. I do not see how that would be of any different here.

I change out MSH on 1911's often. It requires only a punch and a couple minutes of your time.

I do not recall stating that the slides being prototypes is an excuse nor do I recall saying that having slides fail at 12k rounds is acceptable, at all. In fact, I even stated in this thread, many people including the Marine Corps have service 1911's that have seen far beyond 12k rounds without the failures that these 4 prototype guns from Colt suffered - clearly the gun will perform and the problem seems to be from these prototype guns. So what exactly are you trying to argue? Or, are you just trying to argue?
I am not being a proponent of Colt. Making reference to me as some sort of, "Fan boy" is immature and irrelevant.

Just because you do not want a 1911 on your hip as a fighting gun does not mean that others do not want a 1911 on their hip as a fighting gun. The Marine Corps for example does not agree with you. The 1911 was designed so that the operator would be able to work on it in the field. It was designed as a fighting gun. It is plenty capable. Does it require more know how? Sure. But we already knew that. Are there better fighting guns that the Marine Corps could have chosen? Maybe. But, they did not choose another fighting gun. They chose a 1911. One of the reasons is likely service life of the slide/receiver. Plastic will not hold up to abbrasive environments as well as steel over time. If you consider how long weapons stay in service, you can reasonably assume that this played some part in the decision.

The grip panel, "Tangent" as you have put it is not irrelevant. It is a point of failure and it can cause injury to the shooter.

You can argue that the FBI HRT teams do not operate for extended periods of time in the mountains of A'stan. That is fine and it is true - again, no one has said otherwise. That does not negate the fact that these boys get into gun fights often. They choose to run a 1911. The Marine Corps has plenty of experience operating in A'stan and they have again chosen to run the 1911. The Marine Corps also tests 1911's in sandy and dusty environments.

Out of curiousity, since you keep going back to the FNP, do you consider FNH USA to be an American or a Belgian company? What about Beretta USA? Do you consider them to be an Italian or American company. What about HK USA? Do you consider them to be an American or German company?


I am sure the boys of MARSOC etc have taken into consideration what the boys of CAG etc think. However, the Marine Corps just does not care. Look at the bayonet. There is nothing wrong with the M9. It functions as advertised and it is reasonably priced. The Marine Corps decided that it was not good enough for them so the Marine Corps uses the OKC 3S. You can tell the Marine Corps until you are blue in the face that the M9 performs fine and that it is one of the best MRE openers available. Many prefer the OKC 3S over the M9. Comparing the two, the OKC 3S is cumbersome. That will not change a thing though.

At any rate, be happy that you are Army. You will never have to live with the horrible and naive decisions that the Marine Corps makes.

why such fuss over which weapon the Military uses to execute civilians with?

This is just stupid to say and should have been flagged.

How many cases of "executions" using sidearms are you aware of?
I am aware of none.

He is one of, "Those" guys.

They're related?

Considering that personel take an oath to defend and uphold the United States Constitution, I would say, Yes, they are related. Not to mention the technology/develpment that trickles from MIL to civvy and civvy to MIL.

 

[dmancornell]

Losing a couple of world wars might have put a kink in your 31 trades. Don't ya think!

Because the army today is doing the utmost to protect the homeland by occupying Afghanistan and Iraq.

Also implying there was actually a threat to the US homeland in either world war, but hey, this is a thread about 1911's, not to correct the propaganda lies you picked up in 9th grade history class.

 

[FalconHead]

Because the army today is doing the utmost to protect the homeland by occupying Afghanistan and Iraq.

Also implying there was actually a threat to the US homeland in either world war, but hey, this is a thread about 1911's, not to correct the propaganda lies you picked up in 9th grade history class.

The troops are commiting suicide at such a high rate, that pretty soon there wont be any left to occupy Afghanistan. I would personally refuse orders or leave the Military rather than kill myself, I guess in today's US Military, Suicide is the ultimate sacrifice. At least now the troops can legally cheer themselves up with a little same sex lovin'

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS

 

[swoop]

Because the army today is doing the utmost to protect the homeland by occupying Afghanistan and Iraq.

Also implying there was actually a threat to the US homeland in either world war, but hey, this is a thread about 1911's, not to correct the propaganda lies you picked up in 9th grade history class.

I'll bet that you were a great student, and your liberal professors have taught you well. It would now appear the some of your excrement has attracted flies.

 

[dmancornell]

I'll bet that you were a great student, and your liberal professors have taught you well. It would now appear the some of your excrement has attracted flies.

Yeah, all those liberal engineering professors taught me to hate the militarist cult, heh.

Oh wait, I learned that on my own. Never mind.

The contract may have been written for Colt. Maybe. I have not seen evidence that confirms or denys that. Either way, the Marine Corps is going to end up with a solid pistol.

So according to what little information was available on the net, the only other company solicited for samples was Springfield Armory, again for 1911's. So basically the marine bureaucracy is totally dead-set on the 1911 and refuse to even experiment with anything else. Sounds like the same bureaucracy that selected the 7.62x51 round over the far superior .280 Brit even as the Soviets were forging ahead with the AK-47.

One also has to wonder why the SA 1911's were rejected, since SA has a fairly good rep and Colt been reduced to a no-bid-contract joke for the last two decades.

 

[swoop]

The troops are commiting suicide at such a high rate, that pretty soon there wont be any left to occupy Afghanistan. I would personally refuse orders or leave the Military rather than kill myself, I guess in today's US Military, Suicide is the ultimate sacrifice. At least now the troops can legally cheer themselves up with a little same sex lovin'

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS

How's the occupy movement going?

 

[Kentucky Windage]

So according to what little information was available on the net, the only other company solicited for samples was Springfield Armory, again for 1911's. So basically the marine bureaucracy are so stuck on the 1911 they refuse to use anything else. You know, like the same bureaucracy that selected the 7.62x51 round over the far superior .280 Brit even as the Soviets were forging ahead with the AK-47.

One also has to wonder why the SA 1911's were rejected, since SA has a fairly good rep and Colt been reduced to a no-contract bid joke for the last two decades.

SA has made submissions over the years - they donated 50 SA Professional models in 2003 to the Marine Corps and made changes based on feed back from operators. Pretty good deal for the Marine Corps - 50 Professionals with changes free of charge. Back then, they did not secure the contract they were after due to the cost of replacement parts if I recall correctly. I would not be surprised if SA encountered a similar situation this time around and was undercut.

 

[dmancornell]

SA has made submissions over the years - they donated 50 SA Professional models in 2003 to the Marine Corps and made changes based on feed back from operators. Pretty good deal for the Marine Corps - 50 Professionals with changes free of charge. Back then, they did not secure the contract they were after due to the cost of replacement parts if I recall correctly. I would not be surprised if SA encountered a similar situation this time around and was undercut.

Nice, getting undercut on replacement part cost when the competition had cracked slides after 12k rounds and will surely need replacement. Government logic.

By the way, I never asked you this, but is there any evidence backing your faith that Colt will somehow deliver a quality product? Colt has not dealt with competition in years, the threat of losing a contract is the only thing I would count on to guarantee quality from them. And according to the net, this MARSOC contract is indefinite-period, indefinite-quantity.

 

[Botte Hork]

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS

You do understand there's a difference between the troops and the politics that sent the troops to a conflict?

Although the politics and grounds for involvement in armed conflicts can be questionable and disagreeable, that should not be a reason to speak in a disrespecting way of a group of overall fine men and women who accepted the risky job of serving their country in the military.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Nice, getting undercut on replacement part cost when the competition had cracked slides after 12k rounds and will surely need replacement. Government logic.

By the way, I never asked you this, but is there any evidence backing your faith that Colt will somehow deliver a quality product? Colt has not dealt with competition in years, the threat of losing a contract is the only thing I would count on to guarantee quality from them. And according to the net, this MARSOC contract is indefinite-period, indefinite-quantity.

If Colt does not make changes to their slides/receivers they will simply be pushed out - probably by SA. How silly would the brass look then?

Look at the slide stop. At first, it was a MIM part - which is how the cheapest slidestops are produced. The slide stop in a Glock for example only locks the slide back on empty. Whereas the slide stop on a 1911 not only locks the slide back but effects lock-up; during cycling the slide stop is vital. After the guns were looked at, Colt changed to a cast slidestop which is worlds stronger. The only reason for any manufacturer to use a MIM slide stop in a 1911 in place of a cast or machined slide stop is to cut costs. Or in other words, a $5 part versus a $30-$40 part. SA submissions did not have a MIM slide stop; as you can imagine, the replacement costs would theoretically be higher (you would have a superior part). The thing is, a MIM slide stop will break. It is just a matter of time. A MIM slide stop used in harsh environments is going to have a shelf life exponentially shorter than a MIM slide stop used in the controlled environment of a range etc. MIM is also not exactly the most consitent as far as quality goes. You could get a slide stop that only makes it through 2 magazines or, you could get a slide stop that makes it through hundreds of magazines.

Currently, Colt is contesting the Remington Defense M4 contract so you would have to assume that Colt is going to be on the ball. If they are not, they will gain no traction contesting Remington's M4 contract and they will get pushed out of their 1911 contract - which amoung other things, would look horrible for Colt.

SA is a good company that has always supported MIL, LEO, and civvys. They are probably waiting for an opportunity.

Colt has gone through updates - new tooling etc. There is no valid reason that they cannot correctly produce what they have been contracted to produce.

Individual units will probably source from SA and one or two other manufacturers down the road which will also turn up the heat up on Colt.

Sink or swim.

 

[dmancornell]

You do understand there's a difference between the troops and the politics that sent the troops to a conflict?

Maybe the troops ought to question the morality of signing their lives over to a bunch of murderous narcissists masquerading as politicians, instead of deluding themselves into thinking they actually serve the country and not the ruling class.

I support the troops who refuse unconstitutional orders.

 

[ArBrnSnpr]

You can disagree with the missions our military is currently involved in all you want - you get your opportunity to cast your vote, and you have the right to voice your opinion all day long. You should note though that you only get your day to vote and your critism doesn't land you on the gallows because of the men who have served in our nation's military (regardless of whether you supported them or not).
If our military was made up of spineless men who only followed what orders, and participated in what missions they felt were just, it would crumble in short order.
Simple fact is having a military is a required part of not being attacked and over run by countries that do have militaries that do follow orders and want what you have.
If you do not like the mission of the military or have a problem with it - run for office, do something to change it. We do live in a democracy, and for that - I, and my other brothers in arms say, "you're welcome."

 

[dmancornell]

You can disagree with the missions our military is currently involved in all you want - you get your opportunity to cast your vote, and you have the right to voice your opinion all day long. You should note though that you only get your day to vote and your critism doesn't land you on the gallows because of the men who have served in our nation's military (regardless of whether you supported them or not).
If our military was made up of spineless men who only followed what orders, and participated in what missions they felt were just, it would crumble in short order.
Simple fact is having a military is a required part of not being attacked and over run by countries that do have militaries that do follow orders and want what you have.
If you do not like the mission of the military or have a problem with it - run for office, do something to change it. We do live in a democracy, and for that - I, and my other brothers in arms say, "you're welcome."

Historically, the military has only been used to suppress free speech. Lincoln used the military to assault and imprison newspaper critics, as did Woodrow Wilson. FDR shifted that "duty" to the nascent FBI. Arguing that our constitutional rights would disappear if not for the military implies the US is under constant, external attack, which is demonstrably false.

LOL @ "spineless men", implying blindly following orders is courage, but the moral fortitude to examine orders is cowardly. That is the twisted logic of the militarist cult. It's sad really. I recently watched a documentary on the Winter War, where FDR (of all people) condemned the USSR for invading a tiny, harmless neighbor. Fast forward a half century and half the country somehow supports flying halfway across the world to occupy some craphole while demanding thanks for protecting our freedoms.