- Messages
- 9,364
- Reactions
- 23,650
Please connect with my post from back in 2016 - https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/hoorah-real-22cal-pistol-shooting-back-in-uk.229596/
After yet another section of my life spent trying to get over the odd UK gun laws to an American friend, I decided to write the *NRSA - National Smallbore Rifle Association, for any kind of explanation that might make clear to a non-UK readership quite why, while Team GB DOES have a pistol team, they all seem to be in one or other of the UK Armed Forces.
Here is the entire communication from me, to the NRSA, and back. Note that there is NO governing body of UK CARTRIDGE pistol shooting, simply because the Mainland UK, AKA Great Britain, has NO modern cartridge-shooting target pistol shooting, as you might understand it, apart from these few people who are also in the Navy, Army or Air Force. I'm ignoring the very small number of Free Pistol shooters, since their firearms ARE currently permitted under Section 1 of the Firearms Act, due to the rather odd design of their pistols that makes them compliant with current firearms laws here - min.12" barrels and extensions, or 'balancing arms/compensators' that make them the required 24" oal.
From me -
From: tac
Sent: 26 February 2022 22:06
To: TXXXXX S***** - Admin Manager
Subject: Enquiries from the NSRA website
Good evening, tac foley here from XXXXXX XXXXX & XXXXXX Club, where I have been a full member for over 25 years. I've had an FAC in England since 1968, but today I was asked how members of the Team GB pistol squad - as it happens, all members of the Armed Forces - can have a .22cal semi-auto pistol for international competition, when it is decidedly NOT a military firearm of any kind. I was asked by a fellow club member, who had seen a video on YouTube, covering the progress of Team GB pistol shooting. who was wondering why they could have pistols here in UK, and the rest of us could not.
I was unable to answer her question.
It hardly needs mentioning that the rest of us 55,000 pistol shooters had our cartridge-firing pistols taken away from us back in 1997, and I was just one of them, although I was innocent of any crime, as was everybody else, except the late Mr Hamilton, of course.
Until 2000 I was a Major in the Intelligence Corps, running an INTEL establishment at XXXXXXXXXXXX, and feeling very bitter back then about the loss of my sport and my precious pistols. Nothing has changed, I'm afraid. Even though I was in the Army, my FAC was a civilian authorisation, and had nothing to do with my occupation, and yet here we are, all these years later, with people in the Army owning and shooting handguns that the rest of us are prohibited from even touching, let alone owning.
So I'd be very grateful if you could explain, if you can, why that should be.
Regards.
Tac Foley
Response from NRSA HQ at the Lord Roberts Centre, Bisley Camp.
Hello Tac
There are 2 ways that elite shooters shoot .22rf pistol:
1. They shoot under Section 5. The British Shooting (BS) squads are the only access point. They have organised Section 5 authorisation for their shooters (very small number) who obtain a FAC and a letter from the home office to own and keep pistols for that purpose.
They have a Section 5 RFD who has "servants of the RFD" listed on his records who are the only people who are allowed a. In the range with shooters and b. Allowed to handle the firearms other than the shooters. These "servants" are the range officers and coaches involved with the squad.
The ranges that may be used are all individually identified and must be capable of being literally locked down so there is no access.
2. They shoot with guns that, whilst individual to a shooter, are classed as military weapons (I suspect as miscellaneous stores) and are shot under the BS banner via "Troops to Target" programme. This is only available to current, serving military personnel as with any other military equipment. These can of course be shot on military ranges as and when required where military personnel have authorisation and access. It appears, thankfully, that the government are still in favour of the military having guns!
Following the Games (the first large event that the system had been used for) we had a plan to try to extend this system. The idea was that everyone had played nice, it was acceptable to the police etc. and we were going to ask for it to be extended to Regional Squads (i.e. the squads that form part of the shooter pathway). This would have given strength to the squads but also provided a conduit for expansion of the use of Section 5. To our surprise, the weeks following the games all Section 5 authorisation was revisited and everyone had to reapply again - effectively shutting down the system and "rebooting it" for the next games cycle. Be assured the government have every intention of making sure that Section 5 authority is kept to the absolute bare minimum.
So, to get access to Section 5 you need to be shooting elite level scores with air pistol, get onto the BS World Class Pathway and then expand your activity into cartridge pistol.
Alternatively, join the armed forces.
Your question "....why should it be.." is a good one. Some have taken the opinion that, "...if the rest of us can't have one why should they...". Whilst I can feel the sentiment, it is fatally flawed. If we don't have any shooting representation in high level events there is no platform. It will affect the profile of shooting and add another nail in the coffin overall.
Be assured we (NSRA) will continue to fight for shooting both independently and via British Shooting Sports Council to try to offset any punitive legislation and put across the position of the shooting community.
Best regards
DXXX FXXXXXXX
My response to that -
Good afternoon, DXXX, and thank you for your courteous and helpful reply. It is, of course reprehensible to an almost unbelievable level that only serving personnel in the Armed Forces can engage in ordinary cartridge-firing ISSU-style target pistol competitions in Mainland GB, or that they are the only people who can represent the nation. I am, of course, ignoring the minority of shooters who engage in Free Pistol shooting – a number so few that most people of my acquaintance were unaware that that part of shooting sports still exists at all. According to one major gun dealer I know, in his experience, sales of these pistols of this kind have yet to reach double figures.....
While it is heartening to learn that your organisation is still trying to bring about changes, or more correctly a mollification of the current draconic laws, that may eventually bring back some semblance, however poor it might be, of the shooting sport that over 55,000 of us once enjoyed on Mainland Great Britain, it will eventually prove to be fruitless, of that I'm certain. We are now a full generation away from people who could own and shoot most kinds of cartridge-firing handguns, and here I'm ignoring the pathetic semblances that we are still allowed to have in the form of the 'short rifle' AKA Long-barrelled revolver/pistol. Their introduction made the UK the laughing stock of the shooting world, and your well-intentioned reply to me does nothing to lessen that opinion.
That a quarter of the country as a whole – Northern Ireland - can buy and shoot any kind of handgun they can find in a dealership, and even set up a fine location and independent organisation that deals solely with competitive handgun competition of all kinds, while the remaining three-quarters of the country could be prosecuted for even shooting somebody else's firearm, is something that anybody from outside the UK must look at with some degree of amazement, if not downright puzzlement. I spend a deal of my time on a number of US and Canadian shooting fora trying to explain quite how this odd state of affairs actually works, usually in vain.
Meanwhile, after thanking you yet again, I'll continue to shoot my black powder revolver, my awful Ruger Super Redhawk-on-steroids not-really-a-handgun, and, of course, my air pistols, here in England, and save my 'real' handgun shooting for Oregon, where the kindness of friends has enabled me to duplicate many of those that I lost back in 1997.
My best regards to you and the rest of the NRSA team.
tac foley
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this has clarified somewhat how people can get into shooting a .22 target pistol pistol here on Mainland GB.
Basically, there are two ways that a person living on Mainland GB can go competitively pistol shooting.
1. You have to be good at air pistol, and by that, I mean good enough to get into the National Squad. So there's 99.99% of air pistol shooters unable to get onto the ladder.
2. You join the Army, Navy or Air Force, and THEN become good enough shooting the service pistol to get noticed. At that time, you might be 'streamed' to shoot an 'issue .22cal semi-auto pistol', although quite how that works is not clear. The Armed forces of the Crown do not have such firearms as issue items, but then, they don't have bobsleds either, and THAT is a sport 'enjoyed' by all three parts of the UK Armed Forces.
After that, it's a matter of being selected for the FIVE-person team.
So, out of a mainland population of around 65,000,000 people, just FIVE people - already in one or other of the Armed Forces - are trusted enough to have a .22cal semi-auto pistol.
And yet we can have .50cal target rifles and any other kind of rifle, any black powder arm up to 2" calibre and even cannon........
And over in Northern Ireland, any kind of handgun they like..................
I really don't know whether to laugh or cry.
After yet another section of my life spent trying to get over the odd UK gun laws to an American friend, I decided to write the *NRSA - National Smallbore Rifle Association, for any kind of explanation that might make clear to a non-UK readership quite why, while Team GB DOES have a pistol team, they all seem to be in one or other of the UK Armed Forces.
Here is the entire communication from me, to the NRSA, and back. Note that there is NO governing body of UK CARTRIDGE pistol shooting, simply because the Mainland UK, AKA Great Britain, has NO modern cartridge-shooting target pistol shooting, as you might understand it, apart from these few people who are also in the Navy, Army or Air Force. I'm ignoring the very small number of Free Pistol shooters, since their firearms ARE currently permitted under Section 1 of the Firearms Act, due to the rather odd design of their pistols that makes them compliant with current firearms laws here - min.12" barrels and extensions, or 'balancing arms/compensators' that make them the required 24" oal.
From me -
From: tac
Sent: 26 February 2022 22:06
To: TXXXXX S***** - Admin Manager
Subject: Enquiries from the NSRA website
Good evening, tac foley here from XXXXXX XXXXX & XXXXXX Club, where I have been a full member for over 25 years. I've had an FAC in England since 1968, but today I was asked how members of the Team GB pistol squad - as it happens, all members of the Armed Forces - can have a .22cal semi-auto pistol for international competition, when it is decidedly NOT a military firearm of any kind. I was asked by a fellow club member, who had seen a video on YouTube, covering the progress of Team GB pistol shooting. who was wondering why they could have pistols here in UK, and the rest of us could not.
I was unable to answer her question.
It hardly needs mentioning that the rest of us 55,000 pistol shooters had our cartridge-firing pistols taken away from us back in 1997, and I was just one of them, although I was innocent of any crime, as was everybody else, except the late Mr Hamilton, of course.
Until 2000 I was a Major in the Intelligence Corps, running an INTEL establishment at XXXXXXXXXXXX, and feeling very bitter back then about the loss of my sport and my precious pistols. Nothing has changed, I'm afraid. Even though I was in the Army, my FAC was a civilian authorisation, and had nothing to do with my occupation, and yet here we are, all these years later, with people in the Army owning and shooting handguns that the rest of us are prohibited from even touching, let alone owning.
So I'd be very grateful if you could explain, if you can, why that should be.
Regards.
Tac Foley
Response from NRSA HQ at the Lord Roberts Centre, Bisley Camp.
Hello Tac
There are 2 ways that elite shooters shoot .22rf pistol:
1. They shoot under Section 5. The British Shooting (BS) squads are the only access point. They have organised Section 5 authorisation for their shooters (very small number) who obtain a FAC and a letter from the home office to own and keep pistols for that purpose.
They have a Section 5 RFD who has "servants of the RFD" listed on his records who are the only people who are allowed a. In the range with shooters and b. Allowed to handle the firearms other than the shooters. These "servants" are the range officers and coaches involved with the squad.
The ranges that may be used are all individually identified and must be capable of being literally locked down so there is no access.
2. They shoot with guns that, whilst individual to a shooter, are classed as military weapons (I suspect as miscellaneous stores) and are shot under the BS banner via "Troops to Target" programme. This is only available to current, serving military personnel as with any other military equipment. These can of course be shot on military ranges as and when required where military personnel have authorisation and access. It appears, thankfully, that the government are still in favour of the military having guns!
Following the Games (the first large event that the system had been used for) we had a plan to try to extend this system. The idea was that everyone had played nice, it was acceptable to the police etc. and we were going to ask for it to be extended to Regional Squads (i.e. the squads that form part of the shooter pathway). This would have given strength to the squads but also provided a conduit for expansion of the use of Section 5. To our surprise, the weeks following the games all Section 5 authorisation was revisited and everyone had to reapply again - effectively shutting down the system and "rebooting it" for the next games cycle. Be assured the government have every intention of making sure that Section 5 authority is kept to the absolute bare minimum.
So, to get access to Section 5 you need to be shooting elite level scores with air pistol, get onto the BS World Class Pathway and then expand your activity into cartridge pistol.
Alternatively, join the armed forces.
Your question "....why should it be.." is a good one. Some have taken the opinion that, "...if the rest of us can't have one why should they...". Whilst I can feel the sentiment, it is fatally flawed. If we don't have any shooting representation in high level events there is no platform. It will affect the profile of shooting and add another nail in the coffin overall.
Be assured we (NSRA) will continue to fight for shooting both independently and via British Shooting Sports Council to try to offset any punitive legislation and put across the position of the shooting community.
Best regards
DXXX FXXXXXXX
My response to that -
Good afternoon, DXXX, and thank you for your courteous and helpful reply. It is, of course reprehensible to an almost unbelievable level that only serving personnel in the Armed Forces can engage in ordinary cartridge-firing ISSU-style target pistol competitions in Mainland GB, or that they are the only people who can represent the nation. I am, of course, ignoring the minority of shooters who engage in Free Pistol shooting – a number so few that most people of my acquaintance were unaware that that part of shooting sports still exists at all. According to one major gun dealer I know, in his experience, sales of these pistols of this kind have yet to reach double figures.....
While it is heartening to learn that your organisation is still trying to bring about changes, or more correctly a mollification of the current draconic laws, that may eventually bring back some semblance, however poor it might be, of the shooting sport that over 55,000 of us once enjoyed on Mainland Great Britain, it will eventually prove to be fruitless, of that I'm certain. We are now a full generation away from people who could own and shoot most kinds of cartridge-firing handguns, and here I'm ignoring the pathetic semblances that we are still allowed to have in the form of the 'short rifle' AKA Long-barrelled revolver/pistol. Their introduction made the UK the laughing stock of the shooting world, and your well-intentioned reply to me does nothing to lessen that opinion.
That a quarter of the country as a whole – Northern Ireland - can buy and shoot any kind of handgun they can find in a dealership, and even set up a fine location and independent organisation that deals solely with competitive handgun competition of all kinds, while the remaining three-quarters of the country could be prosecuted for even shooting somebody else's firearm, is something that anybody from outside the UK must look at with some degree of amazement, if not downright puzzlement. I spend a deal of my time on a number of US and Canadian shooting fora trying to explain quite how this odd state of affairs actually works, usually in vain.
Meanwhile, after thanking you yet again, I'll continue to shoot my black powder revolver, my awful Ruger Super Redhawk-on-steroids not-really-a-handgun, and, of course, my air pistols, here in England, and save my 'real' handgun shooting for Oregon, where the kindness of friends has enabled me to duplicate many of those that I lost back in 1997.
My best regards to you and the rest of the NRSA team.
tac foley
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this has clarified somewhat how people can get into shooting a .22 target pistol pistol here on Mainland GB.
Basically, there are two ways that a person living on Mainland GB can go competitively pistol shooting.
1. You have to be good at air pistol, and by that, I mean good enough to get into the National Squad. So there's 99.99% of air pistol shooters unable to get onto the ladder.
2. You join the Army, Navy or Air Force, and THEN become good enough shooting the service pistol to get noticed. At that time, you might be 'streamed' to shoot an 'issue .22cal semi-auto pistol', although quite how that works is not clear. The Armed forces of the Crown do not have such firearms as issue items, but then, they don't have bobsleds either, and THAT is a sport 'enjoyed' by all three parts of the UK Armed Forces.
After that, it's a matter of being selected for the FIVE-person team.
So, out of a mainland population of around 65,000,000 people, just FIVE people - already in one or other of the Armed Forces - are trusted enough to have a .22cal semi-auto pistol.
And yet we can have .50cal target rifles and any other kind of rifle, any black powder arm up to 2" calibre and even cannon........
And over in Northern Ireland, any kind of handgun they like..................
I really don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Last Edited:
