THAT WAS THEN…............... (Gun related)

[RobMa]

That Was Then… | The Zelman Partisans

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[Koda]

I think its interesting watching the legal evolution of ghost gun technologies, my suspicion is that ghost guns will turn gun control upside down.... hypothetically if we banned all guns we cant ban objects that can be made into guns. "readily" is too subjective as technology improves. They can prohibit the private manufacture of guns, but they cant prohibit the machines capable of making guns from zero percent objects since those machines are not limited to making guns. Ie: table top mills and 3d printers.
In short: banning ghost guns in concert with banning licensed gun sales I suspect is futile.

 

[bradsteen]

I think its interesting watching the legal evolution of ghost gun technologies, my suspicion is that ghost guns will turn gun control upside down.... hypothetically if we banned all guns we cant ban objects that can be made into guns. "readily" is too subjective as technology improves. They can prohibit the private manufacture of guns, but they cant prohibit the machines capable of making guns from zero percent objects since those machines are not limited to making guns. Ie: table top mills and 3d printers.
In short: banning ghost guns in concert with banning licensed gun sales I suspect is futile.

This is one of the main reasons why those concerned about eventual confiscation should consider getting and become familiar with operating desktop CNCs and 3d printers. They have lots of practical uses beyond firearms, too.

 

[Stomper]

This is one of the main reasons why those concerned about eventual confiscation should consider getting and become familiar with operating desktop CNCs and 3d printers. They have lots of practical uses beyond firearms, too.

Or…. improving their aim, tactics, supplies, and physical/mental conditioning for if/when that day comes.

 

[bradsteen]

Or…. improving their aim, tactics, supplies, and physical/mental conditioning for if/when that day comes.

Yes, that too.

 

[Koda]

This is one of the main reasons why those concerned about eventual confiscation should consider getting and become familiar with operating desktop CNCs and 3d printers. They have lots of practical uses beyond firearms, too.

Easier said than done. In reality only the organized criminals will invest in the expense of private gun making repeating the lessons in history on prohibitions.

 

[L84Cabo]

I think its interesting watching the legal evolution of ghost gun technologies, my suspicion is that ghost guns will turn gun control upside down.... hypothetically if we banned all guns we cant ban objects that can be made into guns. "readily" is too subjective as technology improves. They can prohibit the private manufacture of guns, but they cant prohibit the machines capable of making guns from zero percent objects since those machines are not limited to making guns. Ie: table top mills and 3d printers.
In short: banning ghost guns in concert with banning licensed gun sales I suspect is futile.

I would argue they can't legally prohibit the private mfg of firearms. Being able to make guns is inherent to the right to keep and bear arms. You obviously can't have a firearm if they can't be legally made. The right of the individual to make a gun has always been supported historically...not that it isn't under constant and significant attack.

 

[Koda]

I would argue they can't legally prohibit the private mfg of firearms. Being able to make guns is inherent to the right to keep and bear arms. You obviously can't have a firearm if they can't be legally made. The right of the individual to make a gun has always been supported historically...not that it isn't under constant and significant attack.

I don't see why they cant prohibit private mfg of guns. What they can also do is prohibit the possession of unserialized guns, the net result is the same.

Theres a lot of subjectiveness in interpreting the law, until scotus interviens and that can take forever.

 

[L84Cabo]

I don't see why they cant prohibit private mfg of guns. What they can also do is prohibit the possession of unserialized guns, the net result is the same.

Theres a lot of subjectiveness in interpreting the law, until scotus interviens and that can take forever.

I can't state it more plainly than this. If you have the right to keep and bear arms, building them is inherent to that. You can't be dependent on someone else...a company, private entity, government, etc., for building your arms for you. Because they may not.

Does 2a expressly say you have the right to build guns? No. But it has been widely regarded as a key element of the Amendment throughout our country's history. The amendment doesn't expressly say we can own and possess ammo either but ammo has also been regarded as inherently protected as well.

 

[Koda]

I can't state it more plainly than this. If you have the right to keep and bear arms, building them is inherent to that. You can't be dependent on someone else...a company, private entity, government, etc., for building your arms for you. Because they may not.

Does 2a expressly say you have the right to build guns? No. But it has been widely regarded as a key element of the Amendment throughout our country's history. The amendment doesn't expressly say we can own and possess ammo either but ammo has also been regarded as inherently protected as well.

I guess I never thought about if all the gun manufacturers no longer made them. All Im saying is that manufacturing them can be regulated, as long as they are available.

Im no legal scholar, but it took scotus over 100years to tell NY they were breaking the law. Im not holding my breath they dont somehow prohibit ghost guns.

 

[bradsteen]

Easier said than done. In reality only the organized criminals will invest in the expense of private gun making repeating the lessons in history on prohibitions.

Well, we're in a bit of a renaissance period for private manufacturing, and the bar for entry is far lower (and quality of output is far higher) than it ever used to be. You can buy a good 3D printer for less than the cost a used Glock 22 and use it to print frames and accessories using very durable materials like glass-filled nylon or carbon fiber. There are massive online repositories of 3d files that other people have ready designed so you can just download and print. For those that want to design their own parts, programs like TinkerCAD are literally designed for children to learn how to design items in CAD and 3d print them.

Desktop CNC is definitely still spendy, but if someone is willing to drop $3k on a gun, they can afford a GhostGunner, which (in addition to AR, Glock, 1911, AK, and other patterns) can be used to manufacture a user's own custom designs. The new GG3s can mill steel, so this enables a user to potentially manufacture their own bolt carriers, which are arguably the hardest component to manufacture. There are also an abundance of companies making jigs that people can use to mill receivers with hand routers. Heck, some enterprising individuals have developed a method for people to rifle their own barrel blanks at home using electrolysis.

In short, it is absolutely mind-blowing how much a person can now build on their own, and how this tech is going to influence the industry over the next decade. Not only does this enable people to manufacture virtually all firearm components themselves, it also has the potential to drastically cut the cost of manufacturing for arms developers in general and enable them to develop, refine, and release new products faster than ever before. Sure, it takes some practice, but if there was ever a time for someone to stick their toe in the water of DIY firearm building, now would be it.

 

[Koda]

In short, it is absolutely mind-blowing how much a person can now build on their own, and how this tech is going to influence the industry over the next decade.

Yes, this is what I mean when it comes to gun control. Even if they outlawed all guns the technology will make it easy for anyone to skirt the laws. And it will be the criminal element that exploits that fully. Im not 100% certain but suspect that ghost guns will be a future kingpin in the gun control movement, not in their favor.

RE todays tech, its too expensive for just a gun owner but yes its within reach if someone really wanted to fully mfg their own even from metal.

 

[frank linkh]

It'll be so easy soon that a six year old will be able to build one and then take it to school and shoot the teacher.

 

[bradsteen]

It'll be so easy soon that a six year old will be able to build one and then take it to school and shoot the teacher.

The part that kills me is they're completely missing the boat on emerging non-firearm technologies like gauss rifles. They aren't legally firearms at all, and can be shipped to your door. Right now they don't have much more velocity than a paintball gun, but as capacitor tech improves over the next decade they'll soon be able to discharge projectiles at bullet speeds in full auto. Oh, and the ammo is just metal dowels that you can get at any hardware store.

 

[Alexx1401]

I can't state it more plainly than this. If you have the right to keep and bear arms, building them is inherent to that. You can't be dependent on someone else...a company, private entity, government, etc., for building your arms for you. Because they may not.

Does 2a expressly say you have the right to build guns? No. But it has been widely regarded as a key element of the Amendment throughout our country's history. The amendment doesn't expressly say we can own and possess ammo either but ammo has also been regarded as inherently protected as well.

The problem with all this is there is what the Bill of Rights says, then there is what some black robe says. Black robe wins every time. They can tell you there is no such thing as 2A and they win until a black robe further up the chain tells them, wrong. The problem is this can take years and in the meantime you can be sitting in a jail cell. The people pushing this could give a rats a$$ if it ends up costing money later. Does not come out of their pocket and they still keep their jobs.
They are not going to be going door to door for guns in my lifetime. They will not have too. They pass laws, most just comply. The few holdouts can do nothing other than sit on what they have. If they use it they are in jail and media will make a point of showing others what happened to them. Why go door to door when people will just vote for more of this.

 

[Alexx1401]

Yes, this is what I mean when it comes to gun control. Even if they outlawed all guns the technology will make it easy for anyone to skirt the laws. And it will be the criminal element that exploits that fully. Im not 100% certain but suspect that ghost guns will be a future kingpin in the gun control movement, not in their favor.

RE todays tech, its too expensive for just a gun owner but yes its within reach if someone really wanted to fully mfg their own even from metal.

While back I was watching a video on youtube of a guy building a Mac from scratch. He just used some very basic tools. It was one hell of a lot of work but he was showing step by step how to do it and the damn thing worked when done. Sten's are another that is fairly simple to do at home with some very basic tools and knowledge. Still a lot of work but you do not need to be a Machinist to do it. Those 3D are what are blowing this wide open. Right now they can be a hell of a lot of hand work too but, the machines will keep getting cheaper and better, which means easier to do.

 

[Provincial]

Much of the problem is the elevation of the Commerce Clause above the Bill of Rights. This surged during the FDR Administration during the Depression. That Administration saw it as a universal tool to enable centralized power.

During that era, the Supreme Court ruled that the Federal Government could regulate a backyard garden raising vegetables for personal consumption because the persons eating them might otherwise purchase vegetables grown in another state.

One arguable criticism of the Constitution is that it failed to establish an order of precedence for the various sections and clauses. It is reasonable that sections protecting individual rights should have precedence over "to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes".

 

[edzz]

Easier said than done. In reality only the organized criminals will invest in the expense of private gun making repeating the lessons in history on prohibitions.

So... you wish to label hobbyists as organized criminals because they have tools and machines used for model trains and aircraft, etc..
Need to keep you out of the wit house.

 

[Koda]

So... you wish to label hobbyists as organized criminals because they have tools and machines used for model trains and aircraft, etc..
Need to keep you out of the wit house.

I never said or even implied that.

 

[Alexx1401]

I never said or even implied that.

Sadly what will of course happen is some moron will set up a home shop making guns to sell to the scum. Some scum will get caught with one and law makers will run to every camera they can find to say this is why people like me should not be able to make one. Same "logic" they always use. Have to punish those who are not criminals to "protect" us from the criminals. Telling them I have a better idea, hang the guy who set up to make them for criminals to make and example out of him and leave me alone. That of course will never happen.