Stopping power chart for reference (9mm, 40mm, 45ACP, MLB)

[ilikegunspdx]

In class this weekend, the instructor suggested that if you had a plate that stopped all that, it would be about 40 ft-lbs of energy.
Equivalent to how hard the gun kicks - assuming straight single shot design, that would be about the same at the receiving end.
* there is some loss for wad, or fill, range etc. etc.


Also, a 380 can be designed to expand or tumble which buck shot can not do.

You are saying a 12 gauge round of #00 buck delivers 40 ft lb of energy? I hope you aren't saying that and that I'm reading it wrong.

 

[RicInOR]

You are saying a 12 gauge round of #00 buck delivers 40 ft lb of energy? I hope you aren't saying that and that I'm reading it wrong.

~ pure lead 9 pellets of 00 buck is 1 1/8oz (492gr) =~ .0703125 lbs


The instructor said 40 ish. The opposite of the pressure on your shoulder.
Semi-autos have springs which reduces felt recoil, so this would be in a simple maybe single shot.


I am finding penetration charts for shotgun shells, not energy charts




A .380 chart -

380 Auto

FMJ

90 gr

180 ft-lbs

950 ft/sec

~ 500 gr (1.125 oz) at 1300 ft / second would be a bunch higher than 180 ft lbs.

I am not sure how that gets calculated, might have to research that when my next compile starts.



I do understand your point.


edit
chart for a slug

 

[RicInOR]

I am still trying to wrap around what was the discussion.

if I pound my fist on to my work bench, then ok.
If on the next try, I hold a nail, then the nail will penetrate.
The reason is the much smaller impact area.

But the force is the same.

If I have to absorb 3000 ft-lbs of energy -
The equal and opposite force from the slug table above, why don't I end up in hospital.


So there is something in the language/discussion that I didn't recall in a way to pass that along.

 

[Will_White]

~ pure lead 9 pellets of 00 buck is 1 1/8oz (492gr) =~ .0703125 lbs


The instructor said 40 ish. The opposite of the pressure on your shoulder.
Semi-autos have springs which reduces felt recoil, so this would be in a simple maybe single shot.


I am finding penetration charts for shotgun shells, not energy charts




A .380 chart -

380 Auto

FMJ

90 gr

180 ft-lbs

950 ft/sec

~ 500 gr (1.125 oz) at 1300 ft / second would be a bunch higher than 180 ft lbs.

I am not sure how that gets calculated, might have to research that when my next compile starts.



I do understand your point.


edit
chart for a slug
View attachment 1242365

It's a free recoil calculation not pure energy. Being on the receiving end and having the force spread out on a plate would be less then the force that goes into the shooters shoulder. Still not volunteering for it but energy =/= momentum.

I'd still prefer sending 9 buckshot downrange at once with 5x more on tap vs sending 9 .380 down range and having to reload.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I am still trying to wrap around what was the discussion.

if I pound my fist on to my work bench, then ok.
If on the next try, I hold a nail, then the nail will penetrate.
The reason is the much smaller impact area.

But the force is the same.

If I have to absorb 3000 ft-lbs of energy -
The equal and opposite force from the slug table above, why don't I end up in hospital.


So there is something in the language/discussion that I didn't recall in a way to pass that along.

Don't know about the discussion but best to think about each projectile, 1 projectile for slug, 9 for #00 buck. Each of those #00 buck projectile is roughly equivalent to a .380 round (assuming not some souped up 380 ammo).

 

[RicInOR]

A typical .380 is about 90gr
one pellet 00 buck is about half that ~ 492gr/9 = 55 gr

On the other hand, a typical handgun .380 is traveling under 1000 ft/second, and a shotgun is at 1300 ft / second at self defense distances.



To stop a threat, I prefer the shotgun.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

#00 buck on one of those fancy realistic ballistic gel dummies with skeleton and organs.

IMG_3681.MOV

• ilikegunspdx
• Jul 18, 2022

Or in words:

FullSizeRender.mov

• ilikegunspdx
• Jan 16, 2022

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Having been on the receiving end of rifle fire as well as RPG's and other assorted nastiness....
My best advice is : Don't get hit.

.22 , .380 , .45 , 12 gauge...whatever caliber...
Numbers don't mean a damn thing when the projectile is heading your way.

Please note that I am not saying that the caliber or size and weight of the projectile or velocity thereof is not important...
'Cause it is for sure , that ain't no lie.
What you are being shot at with , will dictate your response without a doubt.

In my experience of receiving fire...
I was more concerned with :
Where is it coming from...
How do I avoid it...
And how do I make it stop.
Andy

 

[angryORbastard]

IMO the old adage of "stopping power" practically equates to "attitude adjustment" ok im I child of the 80s but follow my logic with this anecdote I got to experience living in Phoenix, AZ for a few years.

I was working armed security and carrying a Glock 22 gen 2 and it was fierce and fun. I met a older gentleman one day and he asked what I was carrying. He seemed amused when I gave my sales pitch style account of my police trade in Glock 40sw !!!!

He reached in his front pocket and pulled out a modest looking revolver. He unloads it and hands it to me. Im holding a warm 8 shot 22lr revolver and now im amused. I feigned marvel and complimented his choice.

He was older and wiser than I and it became very apparent that i was out gunned despite my 45 rounds of 165gr Remington Golden Saber +p and 15 rounds of 180 FMJ.

He asked does my Glock kick pretty good? To which I replied yeah its a handful. As he begins to reload the 22 revolver he says "this revolver has no kick, very little noise and practically no flash."

He Adds "I can fire 8 shots in about 2 secs and im very accurate!"

My youth and arrogance showing I said "but its a 22lr and no knockdown power"

He was kind but spoke plainly "does anyone like a face full of bees???" He smiled and said that IS what's waiting for someone who is looking for trouble!!!!

He put the revolver away. Smiled and touched my shoulder and whispered,
"Its a matter of perspective and one day you'll understand."

That was 22 years ago and my old 40 was sold to give my son a really cool birthday party. I carry a Glock 19 gen 5 now and its pretty awesome and im looking at many others including a 22lr revolver because now, I get it.

Nobody is going to be the aggressor with 8 well placed 22lr shots to the face or chest - no recoil, easily inside attitude adjusted and threat neutralized!!!

Know what you're doing, figure it out and make a plan. Carry what you like, what you can control, and what can get the job done -where you are and practice practice practice!!! Just my 3 cents.

Cheers!

 

[Xaevian]

IMO the old adage of "stopping power" practically equates to "attitude adjustment" ok im I child of the 80s but follow my logic with this anecdote I got to experience living in Phoenix, AZ for a few years.

I was working armed security and carrying a Glock 22 gen 2 and it was fierce and fun. I met a older gentleman one day and he asked what I was carrying. He seemed amused when I gave my sales pitch style account of my police trade in Glock 40sw !!!!

He reached in his front pocket and pulled out a modest looking revolver. He unloads it and hands it to me. Im holding a warm 8 shot 22lr revolver and now im amused. I feigned marvel and complimented his choice.

He was older and wiser than I and it became very apparent that i was out gunned despite my 45 rounds of 165gr Remington Golden Saber +p and 15 rounds of 180 FMJ.

He asked does my Glock kick pretty good? To which I replied yeah its a handful. As he begins to reload the 22 revolver he says "this revolver has no kick, very little noise and practically no flash."

He Adds "I can fire 8 shots in about 2 secs and im very accurate!"

My youth and arrogance showing I said "but its a 22lr and no knockdown power"

He was kind but spoke plainly "does anyone like a face full of bees???" He smiled and said that IS what's waiting for someone who is looking for trouble!!!!

He put the revolver away. Smiled and touched my shoulder and whispered,
"Its a matter of perspective and one day you'll understand."

That was 22 years ago and my old 40 was sold to give my son a really cool birthday party. I carry a Glock 19 gen 5 now and its pretty awesome and im looking at many others including a 22lr revolver because now, I get it.

Nobody is going to be the aggressor with 8 well placed 22lr shots to the face or chest - no recoil, easily inside attitude adjusted and threat neutralized!!!

Know what you're doing, figure it out and make a plan. Carry what you like, what you can control, and what can get the job done -where you are and practice practice practice!!! Just my 3 cents.

Cheers!

Whatever makes you less angry, brother.

 

[oremike]

I'd made my wife some 4buck loads for her 20ga Stoeger Coach Gun and we were out shooting one day, me over here with a handgun and her over there with her shotgun. She was shooting at a bad guy target and kept moving forward and back so I asked what she was doing and she said she was trying to find the spot where all the pellets hit the head. I told her to aim center of mass and she said nope, if someone breaks in our house I'm gonna shoot their face off.

 

[American123]

In class this weekend, the instructor suggested that if you had a plate that stopped all that, it would be about 40 ft-lbs of energy.
Equivalent to how hard the gun kicks - assuming straight single shot design, that would be about the same at the receiving end.
* there is some loss for wad, or fill, range etc. etc.


Also, a 380 can be designed to expand or tumble which buck shot can not do.

This is why any scene where a bullet sends a person flying backward into the air is just horrendously bad.

The energy imparted into the person firing through recoil is about equal to the person on the receiving end. Physics…

 

[Provincial]

The energy of the bullet impact is not spent on moving the mass of the target. Almost all of it is spent punching holes in the mass of the target. There is a difference!

 

[American123]

The energy of the bullet impact is not spent on moving the mass of the target. Almost all of it is spent punching holes in the mass of the target. There is a difference!

Yes, except when the bullet is stopped by armor and does not pierce the target.

 

[RicInOR]

I fear my descriptions are not quite /right/ so I am still ruminating on how to discuss this.

I watched a compilation video of boxing body punches - who is going to generate more force than a professional boxer, pound for pound?

If we back off to a reasonable distance, say 15 feet, put on soft body armor -
and shoot each other with a .380. ~90-100 gr @ 900 - 1000 ft/sec
we'd feel it, but would that be more than what we'd feel from the boxer?

Do that for a full mag - 9 times. Assuming we don't get the same hole, are we still standing?

Repeat for 00 buck, not flight control or Federal LE which are designed to not separate at that distance.
(typical spread is 1 in for 1 yd distance for standard ammo)
Same result - 9 x .380 equivalent impacts?

Physiology might say that the short duration between impacts of the Shotty will screw up your internals even if there is no penetration.
A boxer getting your liver can shut you down - maybe a few seconds later - with one punch - you will drop.

So, how to meaningfully compare?

What does the energy in the ballistic table really mean.... more research is needed by me.



Sorry about causing the thread drift.

 

[Boboclown]

Bullet design and composition......MATTERS.

Aloha, Mark

You mean I'm not supposed to use M995 to stop an unarmored burglar?

 

[ma96782]

RE : Post #96
M995

Yeah I looked it up.

M995 - Interesting facts

M995 ammo is considered to be armor-piercing. At this time, it is not available for purchase on the consumer market or civilian purchasing.

This means that companies can't legally sell them to civilians and is exclusive to the military.

That makes it a crime for a person or company to possess its armor-piercing bullets and ammunition without the proper licensing or authorization.

There might be some nuances in this topic and we strongly recommend to talk to a Firearms Attorney for more information.

BUT, But, but......as a Law Abiding Citizen........well? Even IF I had some.....they were lost in that boating accident. LOL.

Aloha, Mark

PS......I remember once having a discussion about BMG .50 cal. Yeah.....it's for anti- material purposes. But caution, don't get in the way.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

IMO the old adage of "stopping power" practically equates to "attitude adjustment" ok im I child of the 80s but follow my logic with this anecdote I got to experience living in Phoenix, AZ for a few years.

I was working armed security and carrying a Glock 22 gen 2 and it was fierce and fun. I met a older gentleman one day and he asked what I was carrying. He seemed amused when I gave my sales pitch style account of my police trade in Glock 40sw !!!!

He reached in his front pocket and pulled out a modest looking revolver. He unloads it and hands it to me. Im holding a warm 8 shot 22lr revolver and now im amused. I feigned marvel and complimented his choice.

He was older and wiser than I and it became very apparent that i was out gunned despite my 45 rounds of 165gr Remington Golden Saber +p and 15 rounds of 180 FMJ.

He asked does my Glock kick pretty good? To which I replied yeah its a handful. As he begins to reload the 22 revolver he says "this revolver has no kick, very little noise and practically no flash."

He Adds "I can fire 8 shots in about 2 secs and im very accurate!"

My youth and arrogance showing I said "but its a 22lr and no knockdown power"

He was kind but spoke plainly "does anyone like a face full of bees???" He smiled and said that IS what's waiting for someone who is looking for trouble!!!!

He put the revolver away. Smiled and touched my shoulder and whispered,
"Its a matter of perspective and one day you'll understand."

That was 22 years ago and my old 40 was sold to give my son a really cool birthday party. I carry a Glock 19 gen 5 now and its pretty awesome and im looking at many others including a 22lr revolver because now, I get it.

Nobody is going to be the aggressor with 8 well placed 22lr shots to the face or chest - no recoil, easily inside attitude adjusted and threat neutralized!!!

Know what you're doing, figure it out and make a plan. Carry what you like, what you can control, and what can get the job done -where you are and practice practice practice!!! Just my 3 cents.

Cheers!

And that is why I like a .32 acp. However, given what I have seen, there is no way I would go to a .25 acp. Lets just say I have seen a couple failed suicides with those where they did not penetrate bone at all. Funny enough, I can dump 8 rounds of .32 in under 2 seconds from my ppk and at self defense ranges I can put them in a 2 inch hole.