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Discussion in 'Preparedness & Survival' started by SSG, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. SSG

    SSG Lane County New Member

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    I took a big look at this economic crisis, and for the life of me can't figure out how a few stock brokers could have lost trillions of dollars of our money. If you know anything about the stock market then you know that throwing a million dollar bet here, means someone took the other side...so the money isn't lost...there isn't a big shredder where all the cash is going. Just because peeps are walking away from their overpriced homes doesn't mean they are losing them, and now on the street...do you see millions of homeless families wandering around?

    Even the banks, like BofA, were told to take the cash, when they didn't want it...and most banks have paid the TARP money back...but we are now Trillions in debt....so where did the money go.?

    Anyone get the feeling that the govt is spending money on something really, really big....??
     
  2. Ray_L7

    Ray_L7 Eugene Oregon New Member

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    Yes. the feeling is mutual
     
  3. willseeker

    willseeker N. Portland. Well-Known Member

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    Reportedly, over 39,000 new unemployment claims were made last week. It was such good news that the wall streeters pumped the market up another couple hundred points. Hmmm... How does that work? Yes, recovery is here...or is it?

    Where did the money go? Beats me. But from here it doesn't add up.
    It's all a matter of perspective though. If you are currently working, your view of the economy is colored with a different brush than those say, facing foreclosure. With oil at just over $80 a barrel, the outlook isn't rosy.

    Spending the money on something really big? Shrug...

    Stay tuned, I'm sure something this way comes.

    Will
     
  4. dobeman

    dobeman Hillsboro Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    a) in a fiat money system, you inflate (create more money) or die, and 'money' in a fiat system is based on debt. Food for thought.

    b) government spending and entitlements. Gov't sells treasury notes/bonds to raise money. Interest on that debt alone. Plus normal gov't spending. Plus off budget gov't spending.

    c) unfunded liabilities. All the promises to pay in the future, example social security, medicare...

    actually the real debt picture is more sobering - including unfunded liabilities we are talking $30Trillion plus.

    We learn from history that sovereign debts like this, nobody really pays back the debt, i.e., US writes a check to China for the X billion we owe them. No. Debts are settled in other ways - forgiven with international strings attached, etc. Afterall, the money is not backed by anything physical. The only claim the lender has is the ability to spend the held dollars on things that retain value before the dollars become totally worthless.
     
  5. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    Sooner or later you guys are going to figure out the debt is so big the government isn't going to pay it. Ask yourself what happens then?

    jj
     
  6. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The amount that they spend yearly is staggering not to mention all this extra "money?" they are spending. It would be very easy for someone to loose a few hundred thousands here and there. You just cant keep up with all that money. Well, we are supposed to believe that anyways.
     
  7. torpedoman

    torpedoman land of corrupt politicians Member

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    the banks have put the bailout money into the market and pumped it up to make it look like all is well. Thats why they aren't lending and if a bank is not lending just how is it making all the money to pay back the government? Smoke and mirrors and a system rapidly approaching failure.
     
  8. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    Inflation, rationing, panic....pretty much in that order.
     
  9. SSG

    SSG Lane County New Member

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    If and when they cut govt pay, social security, welfare checks...that might be a primary indicator...
     
  10. warnerwh

    warnerwh Portland, OR Member

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    Don't worry. The average american is going to eat it. And fortunately I believe the super wealthy will be fine too. I knew it was a good idea for everyone in this country to own their own home even if they have no way to pay for it. Just kidding but it's not funny.
    What a sad state of affairs. I wish I would have listened to the old guys saying something is going to pop well before it happened. There were many that knew we were headed for serious trouble so I wonder why nothing was done to help stave off this huge problem we now have. That money went somewhere and it wasn't to the average joe. Many people who were retired or about to be really took it in the shorts as their retirement funds we're worth way less. But like I said at least the billionaires are doing fine.
    This mess may have done some good though because many people who were complacent are no more. It appears our federal government is now a legalized criminal organization taking whatever they want from us. Lying, cheating and stealing from us then trying to justify it with some bs and figuring we will forget about it. I know there are many who have good morals and integrity.
    This is something Thomas Jefferson among others warned us of. For some time now if you make a deal with our government like going into the service and they promise you VA health care they may still go back on their promise which they have. I was laid off all last year and could not get any health care because I had made too much money the year before. Being as I was on unemployment all last year now I can go to the VA doctors but will have to make a copay. A friend who is nurse told me I needed surgery a year ago or it would be a bigger problem. Let's say we go back on our word to them...
    When I joined the Navy the deal was I get VA healthcare at no cost for the rest of my life. At least that was the agreement. Same with Social Security. We paid it and they are trying to not only cut it back but to end the social security program outright leaving millions of people out of all the money they had put into it for most of their lives. Now what kind of way is that to treat people who trusted you? And for them this behavior is somehow legal and justifiable.
    I wish that we had a way to make people in government agencies as well as politicians accountable. The part I really like is that these people make good money with excellent benefits, better than the average in the real business world. What our government agencies need is a 25% pay cut across the board without any raises until their agency is run like a real business. My brother who is now gone worked for HUD and EEOC. He told me that he once told his supervisor while at HUD that a monkey could do his job and that he could clear his desk in two days for the entire month. At EEOC he was busy. Back in the late 80's and early 90's when he came here to Portland from the Seattle office he stayed at the Red Lion downtown. For food he was allowed 27.00 per day but he did feed his big brother steak dinners. For being out of town he made an extra 100 plus per day. I could go on but I better stop now. Excuse me for the rant, it wasn't intended when I started this reply.
     
  11. Father of four

    Father of four Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    For what its worth, good luck warnerwh! Alot of us here are in a world of hurt ourselves.
     
  12. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    the money didn't go anywhere, it never existed to begin with- that's WHY were where we are today. the debt fell through. the tail end of the comet finally came full circle back to the first guy, and lo-and-behold, he had no money. so all the money he'd loaned to everyone else, and all the money they'd loaned, and all the money that had been loaned from those lenders who'd borrowed to invest in YOUR debt.... couldn't be paid. there's more debt in this country than actual money to pay it back.

    all funny munny, people. that's what our economy is.
     
  13. Ragingpit

    Ragingpit Rochester,WA Member

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    Money went to the NWO
     
  14. Silver Fox

    Silver Fox Puyallup, WA Well-Known Member

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    +1

    Just Jim, you asked what is next?

    Well this country will go broke. The feds know we have different culture than we did in the 30's (a more agricultural based economy, one of which we have turned our backs on, heck the small family farm is an endangered species) and there will be riots, chaos, food rationing. On the Global scale those countries that had depended on the BIG U.S. for so many years will start to collapse (very similar to Greece) and then the President can stand up and declare all this was caused by greed and the failed capitalism of America and how the entire world would be better off if we had one government, with one currency and no borders.

    After the chaos has settled and the CEO's and Hollywood actors have returned home they will try to institutionalize such policies here in the states. Members of such radical groups like the NRA, VFW and anti-tax groups will be sought out as potential domestic terrorists. There will be a realigning of private property to certain classes because they were not afforded the opportunity and it just isn't fair a certain group could can own so much and and another cannot. The false hood of individual freedom will instilled within us via the "multi media and entertainment industrial complex" by showing how certain politicians, actors and other such privileged groups can go hunting or other such activities that where once part of the American way of life.

    Maybe I am wrong. Guess we'll see.

    SF-
     
  15. The Quiet Man

    The Quiet Man rural Washington County, Oregon Active Member

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    When you buy stock, you pay market price for it. Your money goes to whoever owned the stock, and he's out of the deal. The stock broker was just the middle man in the transaction, for which he took a small commission. The market revalues the stock constantly based on a variety of factors. At some point in the future, the market values your stock at 1/2 what you paid for it and, if you choose to sell it, that's what you'll receive from the new buyer. No one "got your money"...it vanished in the market. You could elect to hold on to the stock and wait for the market to revalue it at closer to or more than you paid for it.

    Think of it like buying a house for cash. You pay the owner market value for it and he walks away. Two years later the housing market has crashed in your area and now it is only worth 1/2 of what you originally paid for it. The market ate your money, not the guy you bought it from. When you bought it, it was worth what you paid for it. You may hold onto your house and wait until real estate prices again increase before your sell. Or you could elect to sell it for 1/2 what you paid for it. If so, the government didn't get it to spend on black helos.
     
  16. cbzdel

    cbzdel Tacoma, WA Member

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    am i understanding this right, when you buy a stock the company doesnt get your money its just thrown into "the market"?

    This is how I have always thought of the stock market.
    Just using say Microsoft for an example. If I wanted to buy $1000 of Microsoft stock. Microsoft never sees that money? Seems like if I give them $1000 and they post some terrible profit numbers and within a few days my $1000 is only worth $500 and I decide to sell, it seems like Microsoft just made a $500 profit.
     
  17. Sasquatchvnv

    Sasquatchvnv Port Orchard Active Member

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    There's clouds on the horizon, and there's lightning in the air...
     
  18. NWPilgrim

    NWPilgrim Portland area Member

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    The company only gets the money when they issue stock shares. After that any trading money is going to brokers, sellers, etc. If Microsoft issues 1 million shares for $20 each then stockholders buying them just transferred $20 million to Microsoft. If later someone buys your $20 share for $40, you get the $40 (less fees) and MS gets nada.

    On the larger topic, the whole bailout was really just a massive transfer of wealth from US taxpayers to whoever the Treasury and Federal Reserve wanted to enrich. A few we know about. But because we prevent the Fed from being audited, there is something like $1.0 - $1.5 trillion unaccounted for. Much of the bailout money paid to firms like AIG went to overseas bankers and investors.

    All of this is nothing more than a blatant transfer of wealth to a select few unnamed and unaccounted for individuals and firms. Never has so much taxpayer money/debt been transfereed in such huge quantity, so quickly, and with no accounting of where it went or for what purpose.

    If people understand what has just happened we would all be in the streets with M1As and pitchforks and parading the heads of politicians and "unnamed beneficiaries" on pikes. It is shocking how much has been stolen right from under our noses and we merrily forge ahead debating health care (which is serious, but once four generations of income and savings has been robbed does anything else much matter?).

    Came across this article and while I am not sure I agree with everything it claims, it does make some interesting points about who controls the game and in what games we may be pawns. Something to ponder:

    Crashing Towards a New World Social Order 2012

    The world changed dramatically in Sept 2008 with the first TARP and there is no sign it is letting up. The consequences will unfold over many ore years yet. We wonder how millions of Jews could be lead into concentration camps by a handful of guards and evil leaders. Why didn't they resist and overwhelm their oppressors. Perhaps for the same reasons we do nothing now either.
     
  19. The Quiet Man

    The Quiet Man rural Washington County, Oregon Active Member

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    The company does not receive your money except if it is part of their initial public offering when they first get listed on the exchange as they go public.

    In your example of Microsoft, if you decide to buy $1000 worth of Microsoft common stock today you would call your broker and tell him. He would tell you what the current price is and what his commission will be if you buy. You say, okay, invest my $1000 in the stock. (Many people today do it themselves through an on-line account.) The broker then causes your "buy order" to be matched with an existing "sell order" listed on the stock exchange by someone else who wants to sell his Microsoft stock today. It could be me. In that case, I would have entered a "sell order" for some Microsoft stock I currently own and my "sell order" gets matched to your "buy order" in New York. You, in essence, buy my stock from me at the market price. Microsoft is not involved in it. My broker charges me a commission for facilitating my sale and yours charges you a fee for facilitating your purchase. I get your money and you get my Microsoft stock based on the agreed upon price on the exchange in New York. Bill Gates doesn't care about our transaction and Microsoft doesn't get a penny of it.

    This is an example of free market economics where anything is worth what someone is freely willing to pay for it today. The price of any asset varies every day and, in the case of stocks, varies every moment it is being traded on any exchange in the world.

    It is the same as my listing a Ruger Super Blackhawk for sale on this board when you want to buy one. We agree on a price which is then considered market price because you are willing to buy and I am willing to sell at that price. Because you live in Washington, we need to go through FFL's to make it legal... kind of like brokers. The FFL's charge each of us for using their licenses. I get your money and you get the Blackhawk. Ruger doesn't care about our transaction... and certainly didn't make or loose any money on our deal. When you decide to sell the Blackhawk to someone else, the market price may be different. You may make or loose money on the deal, but I don't care and Ruger doesn't care because we are not part of your deal with a new purchaser.

    I hope that helps explain the basics of how a stock "exchange" (ie the purchase and sale of stock between two people) works. An excellent place to learn a lot about trading is the American Association of Individual Investors. www.aaii.com There are local Chapter scattered around the country including Portland and Seattle. They are an excellent source of financial information for the novice through the professional.
     
  20. willseeker

    willseeker N. Portland. Well-Known Member

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    Great article NW Pilgrim!:thumbup:

    Hopefully some will read it and understand what and how capitalism evolved.

    Interesting following quote:

    "Some of the biggest men in the United

    States are afraid of something. They

    know there is a power somewhere, so

    organised, so subtle, so watchful, so

    interlocked, so complete, so pervasive

    that they had better not speak above

    their breath when they speak in

    condemnation of it."

    -- President Woodrow Wilson


    This, from the man that empowered those he was referring to by legalizing the Federal Reserve in 1913. Rothchilds, Rockefellers? Yup! Wilson gave the banksters the right to systematically fleece our country of it's sovereignty.

    I want my country back!

    Will