Shooting the Stakeout Shotgun

[KKG]

I tend to carry a Bauer .25 auto (based on JMB baby browning) in which case since the safety on this striker fired pistol is not very positive I tend to carry it without a round in the chamber.

They're Very Loosely based on the JBM and are, IMO, a real piece of junk.

Personally, I've started Carrying a Military 1911A1 when I was 19 and have seldom Carried anything smaller, unless it was a BUG. But to each his own. With Luck you'll never NEED anything. Me, I've not been that lucky.

 

[Mark W.]

I've owned 2 of the Bauer's my brother has owned a Bauer and a Fraser (the same pistol) all four of ours have performed very well over the last almost 30 years we have had them. I shoot mine every month about 50 rds some times more. YMMV

As to carrying a heavier handgun I just don't feel the need in fact I might go a month without carrying anything more then a pocket knife. But then I tend to live in a different world then many here.

 

[NWMA]

Pretty good comparison.

Good video but IMHO a flawed comparison.

To be fair, they called out Mossberg's flawed marketing that the Shockwave shotgun is the best weapon for home defense. I agree with the InRangeTV guys that is is NOT. I think it's dishonest marketing on Mossberg's part, and I agree that a stocked shotgun is usually a better choice than a PGO shotgun in a home defense role.

However, comparing a stocked shotgun to a PGO is like comparing a Porsche to a pick up truck. They are meant for different things.

It's harder to shoot a G43 than a G19 but people don't argue that a G43 has no value. A G19 is a better gun all around, it's easier to shoot, carries more ammo, more accurate, etc. But a G43 is a better gun for particular circumstances. Most especially when circumstances don't allow you to carry a G19.

The stocked shotgun is a good general purpose weapon. A PGO shotgun on the other hand is a niche weapon. It's small, relatively light for it's firepower, VERY maneuverable, and easily carried in circumstances where a full size shotgun is not. It's easily carried and deployed from a vehicle. It's more easily manipulated in close confines. It's meant for close range fights (10 yards and under), and at those ranges it gives up very little to a stocked weapon. Yes, you can make hits faster with a stocked shotgun...but that doesn't help you if you left it in the safe. Put the weapon in it's proper context. A better comparison is how quickly can you put down an adversary with a pistol vs a PGO shotgun.

Some points to consider from the video:
*Shooting with a pistol grip vs a raptor grip is a completely different experience. I don't agree with Mossberg's marketing either...but InRangeTV posted a Shockwave in their title picture but proceeded to shoot with a Persuader. The balance of these guns are completely different, thus they point differently and handle differently. The way they handle recoil is different. So I don't disagree with their conclusions...for a Persuader-style shotgun. A Shockwave or Tac-14 are different beasts altogether.

*Shooting from the hip. IMHO this is a foolish way to shoot anything unless the adversary is right in front of you. Pointing the shotgun at eye level, which is how they are really meant to be fired for any measure of accuracy, is more difficult and much less comfortable with the pistol grip than with a raptor grip.

*Speed of shooting. A decent grip, properly pointed in, allows much faster and more accurate hits. In the video I posted, we were shooting 8" steel plates between 7 to 10 yards, using either birdshot or #4 buck. I also fired 00 buck on some different strings but it didn't make it into the video. I'm sure a timer would verify 00 buck is slower, recoil is more but it's very manageable. IMO #4 buck is a better choice for this weapon, but I would be comfortable carrying 00 buck as well.

*Their point that the Persuader shotgun is actually longer than a stocked weapon when pointed in is correct. However, a Shockwave/Tac-14 is effectively shorter in that situation based on the grip. More important, it's beside the point. The benefit of a PGO isn't it's length when you shoot it, but how easily it is to carry and maneuver in close confines.

*Hostage rescue. The proper way to address a hostage rescue scenario with a shotgun is to sling or drop the shotgun and draw your pistol. That goes for stocked shotguns as much as PGOs. (And for home defense...may I submit that a 9mm carbine might be a better choice than any shotgun if you still have many others living at home.)

A different perspective here from Gabe Suarez:

If you subscribe to Clint Smith, he appears to be a fan:

For Hickock 45 fans:

 

[JeremyK]

I read in some gun publication an article written by a guy who attended one of Gave Suarez's classes, and he said at one point GS stood next to a silhouette target while one of his assistant instructors shot the target with a Beretta. He apparently did this so that he "wouldn't forget what battle feels like."

 

[Unka-Boo]

Good video but IMHO a flawed comparison.

To be fair, they called out Mossberg's flawed marketing that the Shockwave shotgun is the best weapon for home defense. I agree with the InRangeTV guys that is is NOT. I think it's dishonest marketing on Mossberg's part, and I agree that a stocked shotgun is usually a better choice than a PGO shotgun in a home defense role.

However, comparing a stocked shotgun to a PGO is like comparing a Porsche to a pick up truck. They are meant for different things.

It's harder to shoot a G43 than a G19 but people don't argue that a G43 has no value. A G19 is a better gun all around, it's easier to shoot, carries more ammo, more accurate, etc. But a G43 is a better gun for particular circumstances. Most especially when circumstances don't allow you to carry a G19.

The stocked shotgun is a good general purpose weapon. A PGO shotgun on the other hand is a niche weapon. It's small, relatively light for it's firepower, VERY maneuverable, and easily carried in circumstances where a full size shotgun is not. It's easily carried and deployed from a vehicle. It's more easily manipulated in close confines. It's meant for close range fights (10 yards and under), and at those ranges it gives up very little to a stocked weapon. Yes, you can make hits faster with a stocked shotgun...but that doesn't help you if you left it in the safe. Put the weapon in it's proper context. A better comparison is how quickly can you put down an adversary with a pistol vs a PGO shotgun.

Some points to consider from the video:
*Shooting with a pistol grip vs a raptor grip is a completely different experience. I don't agree with Mossberg's marketing either...but InRangeTV posted a Shockwave in their title picture but proceeded to shoot with a Persuader. The balance of these guns are completely different, thus they point differently and handle differently. The way they handle recoil is different. So I don't disagree with their conclusions...for a Persuader-style shotgun. A Shockwave or Tac-14 are different beasts altogether.

*Shooting from the hip. IMHO this is a foolish way to shoot anything unless the adversary is right in front of you. Pointing the shotgun at eye level, which is how they are really meant to be fired for any measure of accuracy, is more difficult and much less comfortable with the pistol grip than with a raptor grip.

*Speed of shooting. A decent grip, properly pointed in, allows much faster and more accurate hits. In the video I posted, we were shooting 8" steel plates between 7 to 10 yards, using either birdshot or #4 buck. I also fired 00 buck on some different strings but it didn't make it into the video. I'm sure a timer would verify 00 buck is slower, recoil is more but it's very manageable. IMO #4 buck is a better choice for this weapon, but I would be comfortable carrying 00 buck as well.

*Their point that the Persuader shotgun is actually longer than a stocked weapon when pointed in is correct. However, a Shockwave/Tac-14 is effectively shorter in that situation based on the grip. More important, it's beside the point. The benefit of a PGO isn't it's length when you shoot it, but how easily it is to carry and maneuver in close confines.

*Hostage rescue. The proper way to address a hostage rescue scenario with a shotgun is to sling or drop the shotgun and draw your pistol. That goes for stocked shotguns as much as PGOs. (And for home defense...may I submit that a 9mm carbine might be a better choice than any shotgun if you still have many others living at home.)

A different perspective here from Gabe Suarez:

If you subscribe to Clint Smith, he appears to be a fan:

For Hickock 45 fans:

I get what youre sayin', and agree that these aren't a great "home defense" gun. As a niche weapon, I can see some value as a vehicle gun or even something to stash in a larger BOB. What I don't see is using it as a primary weapon. I will stick with my G19 and stocked 870

 

[Andy54Hawken]

He apparently did this so that he "wouldn't forget what battle feels like."

Speaking only for myself , as one who has experienced combat....
I'll never forget what battle feels like .... Nor do I want to give myself a "reminder"...
What a incredibly stupid thing to do and and say.
( This Gabe Suarez character , not JeremyK )
Andy

 

[JeremyK]

Speaking only for myself , as one who has experienced combat....
I'll never forget what battle feels like .... Nor do I want to give myself a "reminder"...
What a incredibly stupid thing to do and and say.
( This Gabe Suarez character , not JeremyK )
Andy

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Mark W.]

Personally I want a weapon that can not only be used to shoot someone but I like the idea of having a club in my hand. Its very possible that I can defend myself by braining the bad guy rather then having to buy a new carpet and part of the wall behind them. Well that and then the Lawyers new boat.

I'm sixty years old now my hands are half asleep from 50+ years of hard work (I started picking crops at aged 5) and my arms are no where near what they were when I was 30. And that guy shooting the dove loads in the video has way bigger arms then I ever had (and I spent 14 years as a Custom Knifemaker) So trying to hold something as ungainly as a 12 ga shotgun with no stock is never going to be part of my THING.

Hand gun or my M1 Carbine or my 20" barrel 12" pull 870 seam about ideal for home defense. And my WIFE can use either long gun and has her own handguns. She could never handle a shotgun like the ones in the video.