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Shoot or no shoot?

Discussion in 'Firearm Laws & Legal' started by Nick Burkhardt, Apr 25, 2016.

  1. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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  2. 41Slinger

    41Slinger Harrisburg Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    This is a no shoot, retreat while facing assailant and drawing your CCW and telling the assailant to take his free beer and go or die, if however the assailant advances, defend your self. Free beer is now paid for.
     
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  3. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    As long as I'm out of range of the fella with the pole and have the means of retreat , I wouldn't shoot.
    If he advanced on me , cut off my means of retreat or started to attack me or someone , then that would be a different story.
    I would not want to shoot a guy for stealing a can of beer.
    I understand the fact that he stole , he threatened , that he "dosen't play well with others" etc ...
    Acts like this might even embolden other criminals or the fella with the pole to more aggressive actions.
    I get it.
    But all the trouble that would follow me over a shooting isn't worth it to me in the above situation.
    Andy
     
  4. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Heck not for a case of beer.
    On the return try? I'd push more so there wasn't another try.
    I may have let him understand what he was getting into picking up that pipe and threatening me with it.
    I don't believe my temperament would alow me to have a convenience store in a bad area.:mad:
     
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  5. nammac

    nammac I-5 Corridor - West of Portland Silver Supporter Silver Supporter

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    stay out of range of the pole... Clearly state any additional advancement would result in engagement as a combatant and that I'm prepared to use leathal force against such an advancement...

    At that point he has a decision to make, if he makes a good decision then he walks away. If he makes a bad decision, then perhaps he doesn't have the opportunity to walk away...
     
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  6. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I guess I should have made the poll Draw or Don't Draw.

    These days DA's seem to want blood on the ground before any defensive gun use is undertaken.
     
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  7. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I didn't vote.

    I think it depends on a persons physical prowess.

    I would have no problem drawing as soon as he brandished the pole. Don't get me wrong, I would be slowly backing up but if he came at me then I'm not going to just count on my draw being faster then his attack with a pole. Who know what his mindset was, maybe he is plum crazy and just chasing him provoked him.


    Also, even though it was only a can of beer, I think if store owners don't fight back then it makes them a hotter target.
     
  8. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    And joe,there in lies the rub.
    Yes it's only a can of beer
    Yes they will think you are weak and can steal from you,you won't fight back
    Is the prophet from the beer enough to pay the legal fees from shooting the pos?
    Security cameras are a double edged sword.
     
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  9. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    First it's a can if beer, next a handful a cigarillos, then it is a cops gun.

    16documents-ferguson1-blog427.jpg
     
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  10. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    So, is the question based on me being the manager? Or just a bystander? Either way, my answer would be don't shoot, so long as he's not actively advancing on me with that pole. As others have already said, a life isn't worth some stolen beer. In fact, I can't think of any property that is worth a life. If someone is going to steal something, then let the police handle it.

    But moving back to the question, as the bystander I don't think I would get involved unless something really changed. I would already be on the phone to the cops. Am I going to stand there and watch him beat a guy to death? I don't think I could do that, but I have to consider what consequences my pulling, and possibly firing, my gun would have. I would probably try to convince the manager to just let the guy go and hope the police catch him. Leave the chasing down and apprehending of criminals to the cops.
     
  11. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    If I were a bystander then I would circle around behind him while he is dealing with the manager and donkey punch him in the back of the head.

    No gun needed.
     
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  12. OutlawHoss

    OutlawHoss Klamath-Siskyou Well-Known Member

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    One could argue he has Means, Ability, and Demeanor. If I were a bystander (and the only one who could prevent an assault, or defend the Manager if he can't) I'd make my self known to the guy, shout to stop, and at least have my hand positioned on the grip and thumb break off. From there it could be plausibly de-escalated verbally, backed by physical posturing. If the guy doesn't listen to reason, or otherwise check his head after his initial adrenalized reaction, then there may be need for more agressive defense. From the moment shown in the pic, I'd say there's a lot of room for mitigating the situation. It's only a frickin' beer.

    Once, two people were throwing down in the middle of a sidewalk, and it was only getting dirtier. I stepped up (I happened to almost walk into it as it escalated) and shouted, "Stop, you're fighting in the street; think about what you're doing" and they both stopped, looked up, realized they were being idiots, and walked away. Sometimes just bringing people's awareness back to the idiocy of their actions can let some reflexive thought occur, and the heat of the moment passes. I've worked enough security at doors, events, and pow wow's with almost never having to touch someone (yet armed to the teeth) and stopped a lot of fights with just verbal commands and a little posturing (being 6' 2" and 220lbs helps). Many times just a moment's distraction or pause, allows people to back down.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
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  13. Vaultman

    Vaultman Clackamas Co, Oregon Active Member

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    In reading the article the guy with the pole is the owner of the store, the other guy stole the beer. If a guy is standing in my parking lot with my beer I may be pissed, but I would never have a pole cocked like that ready to take the guys head off. If that store owner swings and hits the guy that was apparently just standing there, or walking towards him, then the store owner had a world of legal troubles on hand.
    I will protect my body, my family, and other people, but a stolen beer, or car is not worth taking someones life.
     
  14. OutlawHoss

    OutlawHoss Klamath-Siskyou Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that completely changes the dynamic in that the owner is way over reacting. Maybe he's had this happen once too often and is worked up about it, but he's flirting with disaster over a beer. That's just dumb.
     
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  15. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    all I see is a guy attacking with a deadly weapon well under 21 feet....
     
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  16. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Is the guy with the pole the thief?
    If so the manager got the beer back and needs to go tend his store
     
  17. Nick Burkhardt

    Nick Burkhardt NE Oregon Well-Known Member

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    When the manager tried to confront the suspect, he threatened him with a metal pole.

    Poorly written newsbyte, but I believe the man with a hat and the pole is the thief and the older man in the blue shirt is the store manager. It does make you think, if the roles were reversed who would you be drawing on?
     
  18. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    Writing class for Morgan Ashley!
     
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  19. Vaultman

    Vaultman Clackamas Co, Oregon Active Member

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    It is poorly written, and I did not notice. Though when I read it, to me it initially sounded like the guy with the pole was the store owner. (But the title of the article does say "KPD looking for shoplifter who threatened manager with a metal pole"
    Either way in this picture (not knowing any of the background other than what the article said, though poorly) if the guy with the pole hits the other guy, I smell legal trouble way beyond the value of 10 bucks of beer.

    I like a good beer as well, but not for that.
     
  20. Foreverlost

    Foreverlost South of LesbianVille, OR. Active Member

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    Did the manager vote for Obummer? Will the manager vote for Billary? Someone tell me why I should defend sheep.

    Foreverlost,
     
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