Shockwave scabbard in WA

[Flopsweat]

Many of you have seen the Mossberg 590 Shockwave and various scabbards that can be had for it. Washington State doesn't blanketly forbid open carry, and allows concealed carry with a permit, but only for pistols. WA also has its own definitions of firearm types, which are different from the federal ones. This made me curious.

Question 1: Is the Shockwave considered a pistol by the State of Washington? If not, what kind of gun do they call it?

It looks like it is probably not a pistol.

(18) "Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

The Shockwave has a strap attached to the pump grip and designed, so I'm told, to keep your hand from passing the end of the barrel and getting holes in it. So it would seem to be designed to be fired by the use of two hands.

But it's certainly not an SBS:

(23) "Short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

The Shockwave is 26.25 inches long specifically so that it is considered a Firearm (not an AOW, not an SBS) by the ATF.

So what does the State of Washington call it? Maybe it's a Firearm to them too.

(9) "Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder.

(IIRC gunpowder is technically not an explosive, but let's not hold that against them. )
So what do you think? Is it a Firearm?

Question 2: What does the State of Washington consider concealed?
There doesn't seem to be a definition. A lot of states use phrases like "recognizable as a firearm" or similar, but apparently not WA. If you put a Shockwave in a scabbard, how much of the gun has to stick out for it not to be concealed? Just the grip, or some of the receiver? What do you think, and why?

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[Alexx1401]

The part about or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand would say to me you would have a very hard time in front a judge. Yes it can be held and fired with one hand but I'm guessing few judges would go for that one. So in that case I would say long gun laws be followed. Someone may want to make themselves a test case for this but not me.

 

[Boboclown]

Firearm. If open carry is for pistols only, then its a no go for that.

Edit: Wrong term.

 

[rjmt]

found this yesterday from 2007 on the WP870 from the Washington state AG

Whether certain weapons meet the statutory definition of "short-barreled shotgun | Washington State

lots of discussion on this point on other threads

 

[Will_White]

The part about or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand would say to me you would have a very hard time in front a judge. Yes it can be held and fired with one hand but I'm guessing few judges would go for that one. So in that case I would say long gun laws be followed. Someone may want to make themselves a test case for this but not me.

That seems like it would make it easier, it's an OR not an AND in either case I'm not going to be a test case and I don't really have a dog in this fight.

 

[Alexx1401]

That seems like it would make it easier, it's an OR not an AND in either case I'm not going to be a test case and I don't really have a dog in this fight.

I have little doubt someone is going to make themselves the test case for this, will not be me for sure. In other threads some are making claims that these are a hand gun in WA state. Of course no one can cite anything other than "I was told this" and they can't even cite who supposedly told them this. Sadly that should be enough to get some to test the waters. When one gets cited then it will be interesting to see what happens in court. Others apparently are trying to get the state AG to make a determination. That too may be fun to watch as Side Show Bob probably had no idea these existed.

 

[rjmt]

Many of you have seen the Mossberg 590 Shockwave and various scabbards that can be had for it. Washington State doesn't blanketly forbid open carry, and allows concealed carry with a permit, but only for pistols. WA also has its own definitions of firearm types, which are different from the federal ones. This made me curious.

Question 1: Is the Shockwave considered a pistol by the State of Washington? If not, what kind of gun do they call it?

It looks like it is probably not a pistol.

The Shockwave has a strap attached to the pump grip and designed, so I'm told, to keep your hand from passing the end of the barrel and getting holes in it. So it would seem to be designed to be fired by the use of two hands.

But it's certainly not an SBS:

The Shockwave is 26.25 inches long specifically so that it is considered a Firearm (not an AOW, not an SBS) by the ATF.

So what does the State of Washington call it? Maybe it's a Firearm to them too.


a state senator out of Spokane sent a request to our Attorney General last Feb on this subject, specifically what is the Shockwave
I contacted his office and there has been no official determination from the Washington State Attorney General to date
we only have the letter from the BATF listing it as a "firearm"

mine was listed as a handgun on the 4473, and approved as such by Clark Co, but that does not determine what Washington state considers it
I"ve heard from others on this forum theirs was listed as "other firearm", and was approved
I carry mine is a back scabbard with the pistol grip showing. I"ve not been questioned, but this is only in the mountains, not at the Mall in Vancouver

rjmt

 

[clearconscience]

But, why?

I would carry it in a scabboard in the woods for sure, I actually have wanted one for that purpose, but to carry anywhere other than the woods?
For why

 

[Stomper]

Food for thought (because I'm pretty good at parsing slimy legalese).

The Shockwave requires two hands to cycle the action, not to fire. Does the "one hand - two hand" argument for this particular weapon also apply to Thompson Contenders that are single-shot breech-loaded, or a bolt-action pistol that require TWO HANDS to load the next round of ammunition?

I think not your Honor.... case dismissed!





Geez, you guys need to hang around me a bit more often. Please leave your offerings in the coffee can to your right on the way out the door.

 

[rjmt]

But, why?

I would carry it in a scabboard in the woods for sure, I actually have wanted one for that purpose, but to carry anywhere other than the woods?
For why

agreed - I only bought one for woodland carry
but from reading all the post on the Shockwave, some wanted one for a carry gun in their truck or car in urban environments
thats where the concealed carry question came from
I fired mine from the inside of a truck once - not doing that again
I've not found an area in the NW where I drive where I feel so threatened that I need to carry a firearm
avoiding such areas is your best defense - I don't hang out down in NE Portland at 2 in the morning
I do carry my Shockwave when I walk my own woods, not because I need to - but because I can
killed lots of beer cans and milk jugs with my Shockwave - waiting for watermelon and zucchini season now

rjmt

 

[Alexx1401]

But, why?

I would carry it in a scabboard in the woods for sure, I actually have wanted one for that purpose, but to carry anywhere other than the woods?
For why

I have long wanted one of these just for the " it seems cool factor". Not really sure what the hell I would do with one. This was beat up pretty good in the past as for how would it be classified in WA State. I said then that is WA did decide to make it a hand gun, then I would be more tempted to buy one. Reason being I could keep it loaded in the vehicle. As I mentioned back when this was being kicked around though I would NOT, do this at this time. I don't want to end up being a "test case". I have little doubt that sooner or later we will see one here. Someone in this state will be "found" to have a loaded on in the car and we will go from there. It would take someone being prosecuted for this to get a ruling most likely. Unless someone can get the Top LEO in the state to put something in writing. So far I have not seen where this has happened???

 

[rjmt]

I have long wanted one of these just for the " it seems cool factor". Not really sure what the hell I would do with one. This was beat up pretty good in the past as for how would it be classified in WA State. I said then that is WA did decide to make it a hand gun, then I would be more tempted to buy one. Reason being I could keep it loaded in the vehicle. As I mentioned back when this was being kicked around though I would NOT, do this at this time. I don't want to end up being a "test case". I have little doubt that sooner or later we will see one here. Someone in this state will be "found" to have a loaded on in the car and we will go from there. It would take someone being prosecuted for this to get a ruling most likely. Unless someone can get the Top LEO in the state to put something in writing. So far I have not seen where this has happened???

Alexx, your right - I keep in touch with that state senator out of Spokane and so far the Attorney General has not responded to his request for clarification
but my use of a Shockwave and yours is not the same - living in the country, it hangs next to my bed and goes on walks with me every week. The coating on the slide bars is worn off I've used it so much

my neighbors and I have found a new use for it - igniting slash burn piles
and I will send photos next time we do this
during clean up of our woods, we accumulate piles of branches and dead trees, 10'X10' pile for a legal slashburn
we put a glass canning jar with accelerant in it on top of the pile
stand 15' back
first round from the Shockwave is #8 birdshot - shatters the jar
second round is a Dragonsbreath - ignites the accelerant and the pile catches fire
and we register with the fire dept when ever we are having a slash burn - legal where we live

you are familiar with a Dragonsbreath shotgun round - correct? VERY impressive out of a Shockwave.

rjmt

 

[Alexx1401]

Alexx, your right - I keep in touch with that state senator out of Spokane and so far the Attorney General has not responded to his request for clarification
but my use of a Shockwave and yours is not the same - living in the country, it hangs next to my bed and goes on walks with me every week. The coating on the slide bars is worn off I've used it so much

my neighbors and I have found a new use for it - igniting slash burn piles
and I will send photos next time we do this
during clean up of our woods, we accumulate piles of branches and dead trees, 10'X10' pile for a legal slashburn
we put a glass canning jar with accelerant in it on top of the pile
stand 15' back
first round from the Shockwave is #8 birdshot - shatters the jar
second round is a Dragonsbreath - ignites the accelerant and the pile catches fire
and we register with the fire dept when ever we are having a slash burn - legal where we live

you are familiar with a Dragonsbreath shotgun round - correct? VERY impressive out of a Shockwave.

rjmt

Now that sounds just plain fun! The old adage that men and boys and the price of their toys comes to mind I may have a lot of snow on the roof ,and on my face now, but something like that would still be just plain fun. I often think back on some stupid movie. About people going thru BUD's training. Where one who is suffering the abuse is asked why he wants to be a SEAL. He says "I get to blow stuff up". Most guys just never stop enjoying doing that

 

[clearconscience]

I can see having one for riot defense if you frequent the republic of portland too, I have an AR pistol for road trips and high defense possibilities

 

[rjmt]

ok, enough fun and games - I've read everything I could find on the internet and I can find nothing about carrying "other weapon" in a open top back scabbard outside your jacket, outside urban areas in Washington state.
I think that was the original intent on this post by flopsweat
the law is specific that I can't carry a weapon at a music concert - I'm sure Johnny Cash would have been amused by that
and I researched "loaded" - found reference to detachable mags and revolver cylinders, nothing on the tubes of pump firearms
is a Shockwave loaded if you have 5 in the tube, but nothing in the chamber

rjmt

 

[Alexx1401]

ok, enough fun and games - I've read everything I could find on the internet and I can find nothing about carrying "other weapon" in a open top back scabbard outside your jacket, outside urban areas in Washington state.
I think that was the original intent on this post by flopsweat
the law is specific that I can't carry a weapon at a music concert - I'm sure Johnny Cash would have been amused by that
and I researched "loaded" - found reference to detachable mags and revolver cylinders, nothing on the tubes of pump firearms
is a Shockwave loaded if you have 5 in the tube, but nothing in the chamber

rjmt

You have to remember which state we are talking about here. OR has different laws on this than WA. Here (WA) we can only carry a loaded hand gun in our vehicles. That was what got this whole thing going a while back. Someone here asking about carrying one in the car here in this state. It did tempt me to buy an AR pistol as I could carry one of these with a brace on it. As for the "why", this to has been knocked around a lot her. I keep a PCC in my vehicle, always have. It of course has to be no mag in it. Reason? I don't want to be someplace away from home and have something happen. Where I would want access to something like this and not have it. Will it ever happen? Of course not, but it has happened to others. So I like having it there.

 

[rjmt]

Alexx - the North Fork of the Lewis where I reside is in Wa state
and since the majority of land in the North Fork is National Forest, not Wa state land, Federal laws applys to more area's out here.
this spring, I'll drive down to the Ranger station and ask them what their reading is on carrying a Shockwave, in an open top back scabbard, with only the tube loaded. Since it is very defined by Federal Law what a Mossberg Shockwave is.
now - outside of hunting season, once must have a CCW to carry in the National Forest
and here's the kicker - during hunting season, you can't carry a loaded firearm in a National Forest on - SUNDAY - unless you have a CCW

rjmt

 

[rjmt]

OK, I found my answer on the Mossbeg Shockwave being loaded
by Washington state law, the tube on a pump firearm is considered the magazine
the Shockwave is still a pump firearm
but a loaded shotgun side saddle is not covered - and how quick can you load a Shockwave from a side saddle mount?
but open carry in the National Forest, outside the vehicle, in an open top back scabbard, outside of hunting season?
with a CCW, of course
the uniqueness of the Shockwave still leaves many questions unanswered

rjmt

 

[Stomper]

agreed - I only bought one for woodland carry
but from reading all the post on the Shockwave, some wanted one for a carry gun in their truck or car in urban environments
thats where the concealed carry question came from
I fired mine from the inside of a truck once - not doing that again
I've not found an area in the NW where I drive where I feel so threatened that I need to carry a firearm
avoiding such areas is your best defense - I don't hang out down in NE Portland at 2 in the morning
I do carry my Shockwave when I walk my own woods, not because I need to - but because I can
killed lots of beer cans and milk jugs with my Shockwave - waiting for watermelon and zucchini season now

rjmt

View attachment 438729

LOL.... I'm currently in Lake Oswego (City full of Oregon's millionaires) getting lunch with my daughter, and I'm armed with a G19 and 30rnds of "hot stuff"....

 

[Alexx1401]

Alexx - the North Fork of the Lewis where I reside is in Wa state
and since the majority of land in the North Fork is National Forest, not Wa state land, Federal laws applys to more area's out here.
this spring, I'll drive down to the Ranger station and ask them what their reading is on carrying a Shockwave, in an open top back scabbard, with only the tube loaded. Since it is very defined by Federal Law what a Mossberg Shockwave is.
now - outside of hunting season, once must have a CCW to carry in the National Forest
and here's the kicker - during hunting season, you can't carry a loaded firearm in a National Forest on - SUNDAY - unless you have a CCW

rjmt

This is the problem with these damn laws. It's a mess. The problem is then if some LEO, does not matter which department, decides to cite someone. Then it's up to them to fight it with their money. What a damn mess.