Scratching My Head..... Huh? (.223 ladder issues)

[Member 5605]

I tried a pound of that stuff and it did OK... It seemed like the faster you pushed it the tighter it shot.

Not so in my situation though, I ran powder loads to 1gr above max in .3 increments. At 1gr over max, I started seeing flattened primers and a sticky bolt.

I considered that as well as an option that it needed to run faster... didn't help.

Three rows are all over max published. The curve on the edge was just starting to be removed.

 

[Greenbug]

Not so in my situation though, I ran powder loads to 1gr above max in .3 increments. At 1gr over max, I started seeing flattened primers and a sticky bolt.

I considered that as well as an option that it needed to run faster... didn't help.

Three rows are all over max published. The curve on the edge was just starting to be removed.
View attachment 401121

Sounds like you are dangerously close to using common sense, knock it off you are making the rest of us look bad.

My range day with a 223 went pretty good today!

Range report 223 Remington Model Seven

 

[Member 5605]

Sounds like you are dangerously close to using common sense, knock it off you are making the rest of us look bad.

My range day with a 223 went pretty good today!

Range report 223 Remington Model Seven

I read that. BLC looks like your go to.

 

[tarster]

if you want to buy some nosler bullets, look no further than shooters Pro shop, they have blem bullets that you cant tell apart from
brand new ones in the store, and for almost a 1/3rd of the price, be prepared to spend some money shipping is kinda killer, but even at that.. 1 box plus shipping is equal to 1 box in the store.. So buy like 200 - 500 rounds and you just got 4 boxes for free compared to buying in the store.

Bullets (BLEM) - Factory Blemished (2nds) - Nosler Products

 

[DizzyJ]

Not so in my situation though, I ran powder loads to 1gr above max in .3 increments. At 1gr over max, I started seeing flattened primers and a sticky bolt.

I considered that as well as an option that it needed to run faster... didn't help.

Three rows are all over max published. The curve on the edge was just starting to be removed.
View attachment 401121

Yeah, I'd say you're at the top. I see some cratering there.

 

[Member 5605]

Yeah, I'd say you're at the top. I see some cratering there.

Remington has an oversized firing pinhole. Happens on all brass.

 

[DizzyJ]

Remington has an oversized firing pinhole. Happens on all brass.

Unfortunately, it happens on my savage too. I flattened out the end of the pin to help with it. Another option is to use BR or military primers as they are thicker and less prone to cratering or piercing.

 

[mr.revolverguy]

Like you I have not had any luck with CFE223 in any rifle or or caliber I have used it in. I have tried all sort of loads in 308 and 223 in a Savage Bolt Action 308, AR15 1/8 Wilson, AR10, Howa 223 Heavy Barrel bedded action, Bushmaster 1/9 AR15.

So I have been on a journey to find components that worked across multiple rifles to have a load that I could use for varmint and target. I was looking for a medium range 100-300 yard load that I could use in both rifles for varmint or target. Depending on the mood of the day, semi auto mood or bolt action mood, I could grab either and just head out. Some days I just get a kick out of working the bolt on a bolt action rifle, other days I prefer the spring rattling of a semi auto AR15. Here is the video

I actually ended up with 3 good loads which one would you use, but I hope that this helps you in your journey also.

 

[Core]

Wo

I've given more advice around here than I'd like to admit and I've accepted more that I can remember...

Situation:
New Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .223
New Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x50

Reloads:
Some are 55gr Hornady Soft Points
Some are 69gr SMK
All powered by CFE .223, all using the same trimmed, sized brass with CCI Primers.
Only variants are the pills, COAL and powder charge.

Photo #1:
View attachment 400604
Initial sight in of the rifle. Shot at 100 or 50.. I can't remember, maybe 50. Notice the shot patterns as I was sighting in the scope. I walked it onto target rather quickly and easily. 10 shots I was in zero.
Ammo used:
55gr Hornady SP
27.2gr CFE .223
2.255 OAL (found out this was loading about .010" into the lands), ammo was loaded for a 5.56 chambered Ruger American Ranch I had that could take a longer COAL.
Lee Factory Crimp Die crimped
2785 fps average

Today, I went to try a ladder:
View attachment 400601
So I shot one shot at 200y at a 4" gong. DING... I was using some of the same ammo that was used to sight the rifle in the original time. So I put the top grouping on paper to season and warm the barrel. Notice it says "Barrel Warmer". We will get back to the other shots later.
I did adjust the ammo today down to 2.200" after the lands jamming issue. So today's bulk loaded ammo was shorter than original images ammo. .055" shorter.

So I got the laddered rounds out:
CFE-223
Hornady 55gr SP's
2.200" OAL
24.5-27.4gr gives 2700fps - 3200fps.
No crimp
1: 25.0
2: 25.3
3: 25.6
4: 25.9
5: 26.2
6: 26.5
7: 26.8
8: 27.1 Notice this is .1gr variance from my bulk loads
9: 27.4 (max book load)
View attachment 400603
So there is the groups. All over the damn place.
Gun was sitting a sled to eliminate human error.

After I shot those groups I went straight to my 69gr SMK's:

2.235"
23.5gr-25.8gr CFE-223
No crimp
1: 23.8
2: 24.1
3: 24.4
4: 24.7
5: 25.0
6: 25.3
7: 25.7

View attachment 400602
I then shot that mess. Mind you these are ALL at 100y except the first image.


So at this point I'm pissed off I just wasted all these pills, powder and primers to shoot buckshot at the target. At this point my barrel is so sucking hot I can't grab it. So I pop some of the bulk loaded ammo back into the magazine and shoot. What happens?

View attachment 400601
You guessed it. The bottom group comes out. Disregard the absolute bottom shot I pulled that one. This eliminated the thought process that I had a scope issue. The rifle went back to shooting good with this ammo I made earlier in bulk.

At this point I'm even more pissed. I reach out to the the 2" gong at 200y and pop it. WTF?

I went into the ProShop and bought some Armscor .223 ammo for $8... that hurt. I shot it. It shot the same as my bulk loaded ammo. about 1" or so at 100y.

Aside from the powder charge on the 55gr soft points but keep in mind my bulk was 27.2 and I dropped 5 rounds with 27.1gr so those should have shot close to the same... I lacked crimp on the ladder test.


Where did I go wrong here.

The SAME bulk load that did semi-ok in the Remington did this ladder (notice #4, that's 4 shots) in the Ruger American.
View attachment 400613



Your thoughts?
Go back and crimp a ladder?
Get rid of rifle and crawl back to Ruger?

Wow all that work and money and you could have shot better with factory milspec. Sorry I can't offer reloading wisdom, but it sounds like a bad load. I was shooting my Colt M4 SOPMOD clone with 62g SS109 XTAC with a Viper Red Dot sight unmagnified at 300 meters and getting a group inside a red playing card. The dot covers the entire card, and my trigger is milspec, I was shooting prone on the grassy earth with no bipod or mat. The XTAC has been really accurate for my purposes but I have heard it's third or fourth behind Black Hills, and Silver State Armory in the MK262 which I have but don't often use due to it's scarcity, expense, and the fact that the SS109 Green-Tip XTAC groups good enough. Good luck figuring it out, I tend to learn the hard way also due to my limited resources in my area: on the bright side they are good groups with the factory ammo!

 

[ron]

I have experience with 223 reloading for the last 30 years. The loads I
have are accurate loads for competition. My favorite 223 powders for accuracy.
55 grain and lighter WW748 , H335 Both meters perfectly.
69 to 80 grain. IMR 8208 XBR (meters nice), Varget. Does not meter well.
VV N140 Smallest velocity deviation I have ever seen in any caliber. Expensive
Other fellow competitors do well with RL powders. I have no experience with RL powders.
Good luck

 

[Member 5605]

Thank you @ron, I wonder if the burn rates have an effect.

When I get home I'll compare the rates to bullet weights and see what comes up.

Looking forward to testing loads I made this weekend if weather permits...

 

[jordanka16]

I have experience with 223 reloading for the last 30 years. The loads I
have are accurate loads for competition. My favorite 223 powders for accuracy.
55 grain and lighter WW748 , H335 Both meters perfectly.
69 to 80 grain. IMR 8208 XBR (meters nice), Varget. Does not meter well.
VV N140 Smallest velocity deviation I have ever seen in any caliber. Expensive
Other fellow competitors use RL powders. I have no experience with RL powders.
Good luck

8208 XBR looks like one I might have to try, seems to give quite a few people good accuracy and I always like short granules that meter well.

 

[DizzyJ]

I have experience with 223 reloading for the last 30 years. The loads I
have are accurate loads for competition. My favorite 223 powders for accuracy.
55 grain and lighter WW748 , H335 Both meters perfectly.
69 to 80 grain. IMR 8208 XBR (meters nice), Varget. Does not meter well.
VV N140 Smallest velocity deviation I have ever seen in any caliber. Expensive
Other fellow competitors use RL powders. I have no experience with RL powders.
Good luck

I do love me some 8208XBR.

Some of my most accurate heavy .223 pills are pushed by that powder!

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

8208 XBR looks like one I might have to try, seems to give quite a few people good accuracy and I always like short granules that meter well.

i was told by a commercial reloder that 8208 was his go-to powder for his personal stuff. he said the company he worked for (sw ammunition in AZ idk if theyre in business still. he quit.) used "bulk powder" for bulk 223 ammo

 

[Caveman Jim]

I also like the 3031 for 223 loads, I've got through 2#'s of it within a year....I used the CCI 400 primers & lightly crimped but I will try non crimping this next go around.

I love this community!!!!!

 

[Member 5605]

I also like the 3031 for 223 loads, I've got through 2#'s of it within a year....I used the CCI 400 primers & lightly crimped but I will try non crimping this next go around.

I love this community!!!!!

2lbs is only about 700 rounds of .223, you need to catch up man. You are wayyyy behind.

 

[Caveman Jim]

I'm still technically a wookie.

 

[AMProducts]

SNIP
Aside from the powder charge on the 55gr soft points but keep in mind my bulk was 27.2 and I dropped 5 rounds with 27.1gr so those should have shot close to the same... I lacked crimp on the ladder test.

Where did I go wrong here.
The SAME bulk load that did semi-ok in the Remington did this ladder (notice #4, that's 4 shots) in the Ruger American.
View attachment 400613

Your thoughts?
Go back and crimp a ladder?
Get rid of rifle and crawl back to Ruger?

You're shooting a bolt gun, and using a bullet without a cannelure... don't crimp.

2.2" is pretty short, a heavy charge with this can cause a number of problems, mainly the reduced powder capacity can cause pressure to spike at the immediate ignition. My suggestion would be to change OAL to 2.25+/-.003

If you're seating with that depth due to lands/groves there's something wrong with your rifle.

Generally, don't over-think it. I would run with some standard off-the-shelf brass just for testing. Also, don't worry about neck-only sizing, or neck-turning. Small base size it, wash and tumble, then prime and charge it. Don't crimp.

Try that and get back to me.

 

[Member 5605]

Well...

I'm out at the rifle range, shot the ladder I worked up closer to the lands and used .4 and .3gr increments at .0035" off the lands. Still no crimp, crimp is a non issue on the loads I'm making for this rifle.

.......

You're shooting a bolt gun, and using a bullet without a cannelure... don't crimp.

2.2" is pretty short, a heavy charge with this can cause a number of problems, mainly the reduced powder capacity can cause pressure to spike at the immediate ignition. My suggestion would be to change OAL to 2.25+/-.003....

The chamber on the rifle is really short. 2.214" is to lands.
Loaded to 2.209 OAL which is right at the bottom of the cannelure. You can just barely see some copper jacket before the lines start. This is maximum length for this chamber. REALLY TIGHT.

Vortex:
View attachment 400965

Redfield:
View attachment 400964

Groups 4, 5, 6, 7, etc.. are with non CFE233 powder. #5's are 8 shots.


This post:
#87
is the "AH HA" moment when I realized this rifle does not like this powder for the bullet weights I'll be shooting.
Still haven't gotten out to shoot the ladder I made up with 3031 that did the ragged hole shots due to pissing rain.


And... @AMProducts I highly value your input (as always), I may check into the chamber on this rifle and see maybe if it was made a little too tight or short.

 

[Member 5605]

At 100y today... I was consistently unsteady but....


4 shot groups. Both 6 and 7 did well with one flier that could have been from the right to left wind...


Going to try some again at #6-7.

It appears they need to run fast 3100fps or so.