Scratching My Head..... Huh? (.223 ladder issues)

[Member 5605]

I've given more advice around here than I'd like to admit and I've accepted more that I can remember...

Situation:
New Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .223
New Vortex Crossfire II 3-9x50

Reloads:
Some are 55gr Hornady Soft Points
Some are 69gr SMK
All powered by CFE .223, all using the same trimmed, sized brass with CCI Primers.
Only variants are the pills, COAL and powder charge.

Photo #1:

Initial sight in of the rifle. Shot at 100 or 50.. I can't remember, maybe 50. Notice the shot patterns as I was sighting in the scope. I walked it onto target rather quickly and easily. 10 shots I was in zero.
Ammo used:
55gr Hornady SP
27.2gr CFE .223
2.255 OAL (found out this was loading about .010" into the lands), ammo was loaded for a 5.56 chambered Ruger American Ranch I had that could take a longer COAL.
Lee Factory Crimp Die crimped
2785 fps average

Today, I went to try a ladder:

So I shot one shot at 200y at a 4" gong. DING... I was using some of the same ammo that was used to sight the rifle in the original time. So I put the top grouping on paper to season and warm the barrel. Notice it says "Barrel Warmer". We will get back to the other shots later.
I did adjust the ammo today down to 2.200" after the lands jamming issue. So today's bulk loaded ammo was shorter than original images ammo. .055" shorter.

So I got the laddered rounds out:
CFE-223
Hornady 55gr SP's
2.200" OAL
24.5-27.4gr gives 2700fps - 3200fps.
No crimp
1: 25.0
2: 25.3
3: 25.6
4: 25.9
5: 26.2
6: 26.5
7: 26.8
8: 27.1 Notice this is .1gr variance from my bulk loads
9: 27.4 (max book load)

So there is the groups. All over the damn place.
Gun was sitting a sled to eliminate human error.

After I shot those groups I went straight to my 69gr SMK's:

2.235"
23.5gr-25.8gr CFE-223
No crimp
1: 23.8
2: 24.1
3: 24.4
4: 24.7
5: 25.0
6: 25.3
7: 25.7


I then shot that mess. Mind you these are ALL at 100y except the first image.


So at this point I'm pissed off I just wasted all these pills, powder and primers to shoot buckshot at the target. At this point my barrel is so sucking hot I can't grab it. So I pop some of the bulk loaded ammo back into the magazine and shoot. What happens?


You guessed it. The bottom group comes out. Disregard the absolute bottom shot I pulled that one. This eliminated the thought process that I had a scope issue. The rifle went back to shooting good with this ammo I made earlier in bulk.

At this point I'm even more pissed. I reach out to the the 2" gong at 200y and pop it. WTF?

I went into the ProShop and bought some Armscor .223 ammo for $8... that hurt. I shot it. It shot the same as my bulk loaded ammo. about 1" or so at 100y.

Aside from the powder charge on the 55gr soft points but keep in mind my bulk was 27.2 and I dropped 5 rounds with 27.1gr so those should have shot close to the same... I lacked crimp on the ladder test.


Where did I go wrong here.

The SAME bulk load that did semi-ok in the Remington did this ladder (notice #4, that's 4 shots) in the Ruger American.




Your thoughts?
Go back and crimp a ladder?
Get rid of rifle and crawl back to Ruger?

Read More

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

I'd try different powders and same ladders before changing rifles...

 

[Stomper]

People turn their noses at the Ruger American models at their own folly....

 

[erslll]

I would try less jump also. .055 decrease in OAL is quite a bit. If you were .010 into the lands and it shot ok, I would try a .010 jump and see if that helps.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

I handed a good (younger) shooter six of my 62 grain pet loads to shoot out of his stock AR; without telling him which was which.

Believe it or not, his best groups were with my IMR3031 load.

The differences in shot groups where huge!

I handed him my SAA and did the same test; his best groups were IMR 4895.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'd daresay that crimping bottleneck rifle does not improve accuracy. I wouldn't crimp. It looks like it opens up when the barrel heats up. Is your barrel free-floated or what? Finally, I'd try some "better" bullets than those Hornadys.. like the Sierra 52gr Matchking since those 55's seem to do fair with a cool barrel.
Anyway, good luck!

 

[DizzyJ]

At first I was going to say scope, as that's a pretty low end vortex, and still may be PART of the problem.

I had a Remmy 700 .223 varmint heavy barreled 26" bolt gun, and fought it tooth and nail with several bullets and several powders. Best 5-shot group I could ever get with it was about 5/8". Some groups were 2-2 1/2" at 100 yds. Drove me nuts!

I later picked up a Dick's special, a Savage .223 11 VT bolt action, and I'll be damned if even the WORST groups were well under 1"!!

After I saw that kind of performance, I sold the Remmy, and never looked back.

Is your Remmy barrel free floated, or does it have a "touch" point built into it?

 

[DizzyJ]

Also, what's the twist on the barrel?

 

[KKG]

Have you checked the floating of the Barrel? I was told that the "Tactical" Rifles from Remington are supposed to be free floating. And yet it looks like something is pressing some where causing the mess you are seeing. Are these the first rounds through the Rifle? You said it is a New Rifle and that's why I asked.

 

[DizzyJ]

I'd daresay that crimping bottleneck rifle does not improve accuracy. I wouldn't crimp. It looks like it opens up when the barrel heats up. Is your barrel free-floated or what? Finally, I'd try some "better" bullets than those Hornadys.. like the Sierra 52gr Matchking since those 55's seem to do fair with a cool barrel.
Anyway, good luck!

Crimp can definitely affect group size. I've seen testing done, and it can change the groups size buy a fair amount. That said, I've never crimped any of my own rifle rounds. I use ~ .003" neck tension and that seems to keep things from moving, even in my AR.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

Crimp can definitely affect group size. I've seen testing done, and it can change the groups size buy a fair amount. That said, I've never crimped any of my own rifle rounds. I use ~ .003" neck tension and that seems to keep things from moving, even in my AR.

same. only thing i crimp is 38/357mag

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

each gun i have seems to like certain loads but shoots whatever i feed it fairly decent. maybe try a different powder? i prefer imr4320 in my .223/5.56 loads. i shoot it out of a couple ARs. it doesnt yield the fastest velocities but it was all i could find when i started loading the caliber so i stuck with it.

is this rifle brand new? my bolt guns seem to shoot better with more "seasoning" in the barrels aka im lazy and dont clean them much.

im assuming you put locktite on the scope rings and base or else id ask if you did that

 

[AirResq]

If you feel you have an optic issue, swap the scope to the Ranch and see if you can repeat the previous results (superb BTW). Will cost you only a small amount of time and a few rounds to establish a good or bad scope. If results were the same, complete another ladder load without crimping (see Certaindeaf post) or overheating your barrel. I would only use the closest 4 impact points when measuring your groups ( takes the occasion "flyer" out of the equation).

I would not compare performance of a particular load between weapons. There can be too many differences between the two (twist, barrel length, chamber dimensions).

 

[Member 5605]

@DizzyJ
@KKG
Barrel is free floated in a H&S Precision stock all the way, 1/8-1/4 gap I don't lightly float a barrel, I like adequate room. Came with a Hogue stock that had it quasi-floated but wasn't as sturdy as an aluminum bedded Kevlar wrapped stock.
Twist is 1:9
Regarding optic: I believe not an issue. Confident in that because I shot loosey goosey then seconds later with different load they were tight.
If I wanted I could put my Viper on there from the .308 or the Redfield that's on the shelf... not yet. If the other loads didn't shoot well today I'd be considering it more than I am.

@Certaindeaf
69SMK's did the same as the cheap stuff. Groups were fine on other powder load I had premade months ago. Same 55gr that shot tight today as that shot bad. Variance was powder load, shorter COAL and no crimp.

@Oathkeeper1775
I have a good amount of 3031 for .308, may try that if I can't get CFE to work. I also have a LOT of CFE...

@erslll
I may load up some more with less jump. Mind you the ogive on this rifle a lot tighter than the 5.56 chamber that was on the Ruger. At 2.200" OAL I am .018" of the lands. The Ruger was a LOT more forgiving. Not much room, I can go another. The rounds I shrunk from 2.255" today were at 2.208", so I essentially unknowingly split the gap of 2.200" and maximum COAL.


@v0lcom13sn0w
You know I got this base and rings on lockdown. Leupold twist style and one piece base, all new for this rifle. Thought about that but it would have shown more erratic movement even on those other loads that shot good today... was literally, shoot bubblegumty, shoot good, bubblegumty, good based on ammo selection.



I think I answered all questions so far.



Going forward:
Redo ladder with less jump, reduce the .018" jump to .010 or less. See how it goes.

Check scope mount for weakness.

Have a pineapple cider.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

335 is my powder for bolt action .223. you're obviously way deeper into the discipline than me.

Still learning in my mid 50s.

 

[Member 5605]

My chamber ogive with 55gr SP's:



The bulk ammo I bumped shorter today to make it chamber:


I'm running .003" off the lands already. Lol. So that means my other stuff that I did the ladder on was .021" off lands.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

@DizzyJ
@KKG
Barrel is free floated in a H&S Precision stock all the way, 1/8-1/4 gap I don't lightly float a barrel, I like adequate room. Came with a Hogue stock that had it quasi-floated but wasn't as sturdy as an aluminum bedded Kevlar wrapped stock.
Twist is 1:9
Regarding optic: I believe not an issue. Confident in that because I shot loosey goosey then seconds later with different load they were tight.
If I wanted I could put my Viper on there from the .308 or the Redfield that's on the shelf... not yet. If the other loads didn't shoot well today I'd be considering it more than I am.

@Certaindeaf
69SMK's did the same as the cheap stuff. Groups were fine on other powder load I had premade months ago. Same 55gr that shot tight today as that shot bad. Variance was powder load, shorter COAL and no crimp.

@Oathkeeper1775
I have a good amount of 3031 for .308, may try that if I can't get CFE to work. I also have a LOT of CFE...

@erslll
I may load up some more with less jump. Mind you the ogive on this rifle a lot tighter than the 5.56 chamber that was on the Ruger. At 2.200" OAL I am .018" of the lands. The Ruger was a LOT more forgiving. Not much room, I can go another. The rounds I shrunk from 2.255" today were at 2.208", so I essentially unknowingly split the gap of 2.200" and maximum COAL.


@v0lcom13sn0w
You know I got this base and rings on lockdown. Leupold twist style and one piece base, all new for this rifle. Thought about that but it would have shown more erratic movement even on those other loads that shot good today... was literally, shoot bubblegumty, shoot good, bubblegumty, good based on ammo selection.



I think I answered all questions so far.



Going forward:
Redo ladder with less jump, reduce the .018" jump to .010 or less. See how it goes.

Check scope mount for weakness.

Have a pineapple cider.

ace pineapple by chance?

 

[DenimChicken]

Have you used CFE-223 before? I'm not expert but I seem to recall some complaints about it guys getting disappoint velocity numbers with it, and haven't seen a lot of people advocating for it for accurate loads. I would try a different powder and see what happens.

 

[Member 5605]

Have you used CFE-223 before? I'm not expert but I seem to recall some complaints about it guys getting disappoint velocity numbers with it, and haven't seen a lot of people advocating for it for accurate loads. I would try a different powder and see what happens.

Aye, I've used it before and have had fantastic results with it.

 

[Member 5605]

335 is my powder for bolt action .223. you're obviously way deeper into the discipline than me.

Still learning in my mid 50s.

If you mean deeper by money sunk into gadgets and widgets.... maybe.