Scratching My Head..... Huh? (.223 ladder issues)

[Member 5605]

i run 25.5gr 4320 with 55gr. its right around 2700fps out of 16" barrel. a bit light of a load and it is accurate. it cycles my ARs and thats all i care about

I'll make some 4350 rounds up tonight with the 55gr pills, and maybe a few 3031's.

@jordanka16 all good man, just an emphasis to make sure nobody kept thinking I was crimping.

 

[KKG]

Your loading sounds first rate. Have you considered "polishing" the Barrel or have you already done that? I've worked over a few 700s and found a cleaning/polishing cycle to be very helpful, especially with a new Barrel. Just a thought.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

If you pull that Crossfire scope off you can send it back to Vortex and get a new one. No problem. Just call them. Also, if you decide you want to upgrade to a better Vortex scope just call and talk to them about it. I upgraded from a Crossfire to a Viper for $150 because I just wasn't happy with the features on the Crossfire.

 

[DizzyJ]

Check the numbers but I think not. You want 1/7 or even faster. You can get them in 1/6.5 even

Except it does. One hole group at 100 yds and 1/2 MOA clear out to 600.

Twist and bullet weight aren't always straight forward, cut and dry. Sometimes you just have to try them.

 

[Member 5605]

Your loading sounds first rate. Have you considered "polishing" the Barrel or have you already done that? I've worked over a few 700s and found a cleaning/polishing cycle to be very helpful, especially with a new Barrel. Just a thought.

Negative have not.

Should be sub-MOA out of the box or I wouldn't pay what I did for it... on sale with a rebate.

 

[Goosebrown]

So a few more thoughts. How are you weighing your charges? I had an SPS Varmint that shot like that and I had to swap the trigger and get an HS precision stock. If you take the action out the barrel channel has a finger that comes. Up in the middle of the Barrel channel like a finger pressing on the bottom of the barrel.

I called Remington on this and they insisted it made things better. But everything I know says free float the barrel.

Make your decision on the trigger. I went to Timney and I love it

Looking carefully at targets I see you still have a lot of vertical dispersion in your groups and traditionally, that is from different pressures in the cases. Did you weigh the cases and sort them? Are your charges is not 100% accurate every time? Most embarrassing question, is your scope on tight? I was half with your competition once before I noticed my scope was loose.

 

[jordanka16]

Make your decision on the trigger. I went to Timney and I love it

Looking carefully at targets I see you still have a lot of vertical dispersion in your groups and traditionally, that is from different pressures in the cases. Did you weigh the cases and sort them?

I also put a timney in my sps tactical, way better than the stock trigger.

From my playing around, and from other people who have tried it as well, weighing cases doesn't make a difference until you are shooting at extremely long range for very small groups, like in bench rest. Sorting them by headstamp is usually sufficient.

 

[Member 5605]

So a few more thoughts. How are you weighing your charges? I had an SPS Varmint that shot like that and I had to swap the trigger and get an HS precision stock. If you take the action out the barrel channel has a finger that comes. Up in the middle of the Barrel channel like a finger pressing on the bottom of the barrel.

I called Remington on this and they insisted it made things better. But everything I know says free float the barrel.

Original Hogue stock was full floating. No pressure point. With the full heavy barrel rifles I've had, so far I haven't seen a pressure point on any of them. I've seen them on lighter profile barrels.
Changed because I had the HS Precision on my .308 and replaced it with a Magpul so both rifles were sure to be free floated and not have a stock that flexes with you load the bipod.

Make your decision on the trigger. I went to Timney and I love it

I have my stock x-mark pro down to 2.25lbs consistently... not an estimate, I use a trigger pull gauge.

Looking carefully at targets I see you still have a lot of vertical dispersion in your groups and traditionally, that is from different pressures in the cases. Did you weigh the cases and sort them? Are your charges is not 100% accurate every time?

Hornady Chargemaster does my precision weights. I turn it on a few hours before, calibrate then check when I switch powders on accuracy again.

As Jordan stated above and for those reasons, I don't weigh cases. Believe it or not I never have and I've never seen much of a difference. Brass volume is about the same amount of error as human error.

Most embarrassing question, is your scope on tight? I was half with your competition once before I noticed my scope was loose.

Scope is on tight and snug (not over tight)
Checking scope issue tomorrow. Bringing Redfield to the range, will shoot a group of some loads I'm making tonight with each scope and see what happens. if it's bubblegumty with both optics then that solves that.



I really appreciate the input from everyone. I should know more tomorrow or at least have some issues narrowed down. I picked up a box of Hornady 53gr V-Max to shoot, I'll compare it with my homemade 55gr vmax that shot damn fine at 350y 6 months ago.

 

[ageingstudent]

Original Hogue stock was full floating. No pressure point. With the full heavy barrel rifles I've had, so far I haven't seen a pressure point on any of them. I've seen them on lighter profile barrels.
Changed because I had the HS Precision on my .308 and replaced it with a Magpul so both rifles were sure to be free floated and not have a stock that flexes with you load the bipod.


I have my stock x-mark pro down to 2.25lbs consistently... not an estimate, I use a trigger pull gauge.


Hornady Chargemaster does my precision weights. I turn it on a few hours before, calibrate then check when I switch powders on accuracy again.

As Jordan stated above and for those reasons, I don't weigh cases. Believe it or not I never have and I've never seen much of a difference. Brass volume is about the same amount of error as human error.



Scope is on tight and snug (not over tight)
Checking scope issue tomorrow. Bringing Redfield to the range, will shoot a group of some loads I'm making tonight with each scope and see what happens. if it's bubblegumty with both optics then that solves that.



I really appreciate the input from everyone. I should know more tomorrow or at least have some issues narrowed down. I picked up a box of Hornady 53gr V-Max to shoot, I'll compare it with my homemade 55gr vmax that shot damn fine at 350y 6 months ago.

I think you pretty much got it covered bro. Troubleshoot from the outside in (easiest potential problem first) and eliminate possibilities as you go. If you can't put a finger on it do you have a borescope?

 

[Goosebrown]

"Original Hogue stock was full floating. No pressure point. ".

Mine was made in 2007 and it was Tupperware. Absolute bubblegum.

On weighing cases as the case gets smaller like 204 and 223. Each variation makes a relatively larger difference than in larger calibers.

It's free, it can help but won't be the biggest change ever.

In 223 I only use lake city brass. That alone cut my groups by 50% on my accurate loads. They are also very consistent in weight in the lots I have.

Also for target small caliber many folks claim better results with flat bases bullets. I have not tried but worth mentioning.

I have a 1/9 26" .223 barrel coming today for one of my savages. I'll be joining you in load development soon.

 

[joken]

Had this problem with a friends rifle a couple years ago. We tried different everything and couldn't make it shoot. Finally bought some new brass and problem solved.

 

[jrd541280]

Do you have an H4895? I had the same issues you are having with a Savage 243 I wanted set up for yotes. 58gr. Vmax. Could not get under an inch and a quarter with a sh#tload of the "new" powders. Finally tried it just for the hell of it without any hope of success. I damn near cried when I walked up to that target the first time, and the second and the third. Then I bought the same rifle in 223 wanting to shoot 50gr Vmax. Same issues til I got to the H4895. Both rifles are 22inch bbls with 1:9 twists. The 58's in the 243 are running about 3700fps and the 50's in the 223 are just over 3400fps. In the 223 the powder fills the case about half way up in the neck. If its really quiet you can actually hear the kernals crunch when seating the bullet.
Anyway, this worked for me. Might give it a try

 

[Member 5605]

Do you have an H4895? I had the same issues you are having with a Savage 243 I wanted set up for yotes. 58gr. Vmax.
.....
Anyway, this worked for me. Might give it a try

No H4895 on the inventory. Buddy of mind has some I could get without buying a pound...

Will report back after the 4 different loads today and two optics.

 

[Goosebrown]

h4895 is very accurate in my experience. I have used it in 223, 308, 260 and 260ai. The only one that doesn't sing with it is the AI where I want a lot more velocity.

 

[Member 5605]

Ok guys

That's 8 shots @ 50y using 21.5gr IMR3031

Using vortex scope.

The top row is:
CFE handloads, CFE handloads, Hornady factory ammo

Middle row:
4320 handloads, -, -, 3031 handloads

 

[erslll]

That is good. Reloads or factory ammo test?

 

[DenimChicken]

I'd say you got it figured out.

 

[Member 5605]

That is good. Reloads or factory ammo test?

Reloaded ammo.

Debating if I need to change out the optic to see how the Redfield does with the other ammo as well.

I'd say you got it figured out.

Well maybe... but the question stands if the optic has some vibrations at the faster powders that's causing issues...

 

[DenimChicken]

I would change the optic. I had a Crossfire and it had to go back to Vortex for tracking and zero issues and still wasn't ever what I would consider a quality scope.

 

[DizzyJ]

I would change the optic. I had a Crossfire and it had to go back to Vortex for tracking and zero issues and still wasn't ever what I would consider a quality scope.

I would also try a higher quality scope.