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Here's a simple explanation: All those highly trained professional troops Ukraine had at the beginning of the incursion are dead. The troops being thrown into this counter offensive are newly formed units, made up of unwilling conscripts snatched off the street or from their homes, and hastily trained. Of course, if all one does is listen to the MSM one wouldn't know this, because the narrative is that Ukraine is winning and the inept, ineffective, poorly equipped Russians are taking all the losses. Hence, surprise and disbelief when the current offensive goes nowhere.

I recall maybe 95%? of MSM stories at the start of the war about Ukraine crash courses to get secretaries trained, various regular people learning how to fire missiles etc. I don't recall much of anything about highly trained troops.

Who says they are unwilling conscripts. I think you are taking about Russia there as that is certainly the case in Russia and well documented.
 
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I have a work acquaintance who is half Ukrainian. His grandparents live in Ukraine, in a rural area away from the fighting. He is, of course, very pro-Ukraine and very anti-Putin, because he has family directly affected.

We all believe what we choose to believe, depending on what sources we choose to trust.

You can choose to believe that Putin is a monster and Ukraine is pure and innocent, virtuously defending their home from an unprovoked attack, if you so choose, and you'll find plenty of "truth" to back that up.

Alternatively, you can choose to believe that Putin is the great savior, Glorious Leader, rooting out corruption and evil (not to mention Nazism) in the criminal state of Ukraine, forced into action by the evils of America and NATO. You'll find of plenty of "truth" to listen to on your side as well.

I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but experience tells me that the real truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. All I know is that we've known for a long time that Putin is a Stalin-wannabe, Soviet-style strongman, a genuinely bad dude. I don't understand how anyone could cheer for him or believe a word he says. I don't necessarily believe much from Biden or Europe either though, nor do I trust their motives.

Beyond that, I feel bad for my friend's Ukrainian family. They seem like good people. I know this will bring indignant responses of the Russophiles here, but so be it.
 
No way we get the truth from the governments murdering their citizens with war, men wouldn't fight if they knew the truth. The true cost in casualties won't ever be known, victors write the history book.

Hopefully those that started this war are cursed to hell and their sins be passed on to their families.
 
I recall maybe 95%? of MSM stories at the start of the war about Ukraine crash courses to get secretaries trained, various regular people learning how to fire missiles etc. I don't recall much of anything about highly trained troops.
As I said before, if you only listen to the MSM, you don't know anything about this conflict.
Who says they are unwilling conscripts. I think you are taking about Russia there as that is certainly the case in Russia and well documented.
The US and NATO spent 8 years building up the UAF. If you are unaware of this, well, you are just unaware. Also, there is plenty of video of Ukrainians being picked up by press gangs. Just look for it.

Douglas MacGregor has reported on this. Try going thru some of the videos on his channel. I know some of the military geniuses here have deemed him "out of his depth." I'd like to see their credentials stacked up against his. As he has explained, Ukraine is on its 3rd army. The first was the NATO trained professionals. The 2nd was the highly motivated volunteers. The 3rd is the conscript army.

It's not my job to educate you, nor am I interested in doing so. I am not a Russophile either. I just object to my country being dragged into a European conflict in which we have absolutely no business and which we largely brought about. I feel bad for the destruction that is taking place in Ukraine, too, which is being needlessly prolonged by the squandering of US money and military strength.

I will not argue with you. I will however continue to post information contrary to the pro-war narrative in the hopes that someone stuck in the Cold War mentality may see the light.

 
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I have a work acquaintance who is half Ukrainian. His grandparents live in Ukraine, in a rural area away from the fighting. He is, of course, very pro-Ukraine and very anti-Putin, because he has family directly affected.

We all believe what we choose to believe, depending on what sources we choose to trust.

You can choose to believe that Putin is a monster and Ukraine is pure and innocent, virtuously defending their home from an unprovoked attack, if you so choose, and you'll find plenty of "truth" to back that up.

Alternatively, you can choose to believe that Putin is the great savior, Glorious Leader, rooting out corruption and evil (not to mention Nazism) in the criminal state of Ukraine, forced into action by the evils of America and NATO. You'll find of plenty of "truth" to listen to on your side as well.

I don't claim to be any kind of expert, but experience tells me that the real truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. All I know is that we've known for a long time that Putin is a Stalin-wannabe, Soviet-style strongman, a genuinely bad dude. I don't understand how anyone could cheer for him or believe a word he says. I don't necessarily believe much from Biden or Europe either though, nor do I trust their motives.

Beyond that, I feel bad for my friend's Ukrainian family. They seem like good people. I know this will bring indignant responses of the Russophiles here, but so be it.
Thats a way to look at Putin. Having lived in Russia pre Putin when the place was in a total free fall and basically run by the Mafia when western countries and former Soviet officials were robbing the country blind I see a guy who saved the nation . He's the strong leader the Russian like, want and really need. I just see the pendulum swinging back. Pendulums swing.
 
To each their own. A lot of people thought Castro did wonderful things for Cuba, saving it from the mafia, and many millions of Chinese still revere Mao as the one who modernized China, never mind that he killed more Chinese than the Japanese did in WWII. I guess it's all in how you look at things.
 
To each their own. A lot of people thought Castro did wonderful things for Cuba, saving it from the mafia, and many millions of Chinese still revere Mao as the one who modernized China, never mind that he killed more Chinese than the Japanese did in WWII. I guess it's all in how you look at things.
It's easy to look back at history from a comfy chair with no perspective.
 
It's even easier to post limp platitudes than say something substantive.
I wouldn't say limp platitudes. If you know nothing of the condition Russia was in in the mid to late 90's, and most Americans dont have the slightest idea of what it was like then, you might assume that all Putin is is a monster when in fact, he saved the country .The people in Russia largely respect and admire him for that and are in large part willing to follow him down the road to rebuilding Russia. Not all of them but when we talk about the "opposition" in Russia its a pathetically small movement. For the most part the people of Russia do feel their country was picked apart without their consent after the fall of the Soviet Union and many of them do want it back. A good manager like Putin steps in and they get some of that. Russia is in it for the long haul in Ukraine and Ukraine will collapse eventually and join some sort of union with Russia and probably Belarus.
 
I wouldn't say limp platitudes. If you know nothing of the condition Russia was in in the mid to late 90's you might assume that all Putin is is a monster when infact,t he saved the country and the people in Russia largely respect and admire him for that and are willing to follow him. Not all of them but when we talk about the "opposition" in Russia its a pathetically small movement. For the most part the people of Russia do feel their country was picked apart without their consent after the fall of the Soviet Union and many of them do want it back. A good manager like Putin steps in and they get some of that. Russia is in it for the long haul in Ukraine and Ukraine will collapse eventually and join some sort of union with Russia and probably Belarus.
Right, like Hitler saved Germany.

Putin is a good manager? That is easily one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read here. He certainly managed his Army's equipment needs didn't he? :s0140:
 
Right, like Hitler saved Germany.

Putin is a good manager? That is easily one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read here. He certainly managed his Army's equipment needs didn't he? :s0140:
You have no idea what Putins Army is doing. Youre watching the western Media filtered through Ukraine and the CIA and what they want you to believe. Lap it up. Ukraine is in the middle of a failing offensive. A year. Maybe two left but they could collapse at any time in the next 6 months.

Yeah, Hitler pretty much pulled Germany out of the collapse of the Weimar Republic.
 
You have no idea what Putins Army is doing. Youre watching the western Media filtered through Ukraine and the CIA and what they want you to believe. Lap it up. Ukraine is in the middle of a failing offensive. A year. Maybe two left but they could collapse at any time in the next 6 months.

Yeah, Hitler pretty much pulled Germany out of the collapse of the Weimar Republic.
You can try to rationalize your Machiavellian blah blah however you wish, but none of the rest of us have any duty ro accept that swill.
 
You can try to rationalize your Machiavellian blah blah however you wish, but none of the rest of us have any duty ro accept that swill.
You dont have to accept anything but you'll still be complaining about it 5 years from now when everything i just said will be on the ground fact. Putins already been shown that as long as he stays out of non NATO countries, he can do what he wants. No one that can beat him wants to even try.
 
You dont have to accept anything but you'll still be complaining about it 5 years from now when everything i just said will be on the ground fact. Putins already been shown that as long as he stays out of non NATO countries, he can do what he wants. No one that can beat him wants to even try.
Right. Just like your previous boasts about how the Russian invasion of Ukraine would go. Russia just plowed right over them right? :s0140:
 
Right. Just like your previous boasts about how the Russian invasion of Ukraine would go. Russia just plowed right over them right? :s0140:
Without a massive influx of western arms they would have been plowed over a year ago. We'll get tired of propping them up soon enough. Their military has been largely wiped out. Matter of time. The Russians will just win it by attrition .
 
Ummm, backpedaling.
Do you honestly and sincerely think the Ukranians will win this war. Win as in kicking the Russians out of their territory? Or even win with a negotiateded settlement giving up something major? I dont think the Ukranians CAN win. They can hold out for a while but they dont have the long-term capability of pulling it off.
 
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