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Thank you for being one of the very few on here who is capable of having a discussion, Mountain Bear. Here is my reply:
I like this arguement. But, aren't you comparing what the bible says to what muslims do, and not what the koran says? I mean lets look at what christians have done in interpretation of these verses. Women who had extra-marital affairs were often burned at the stake. The idea of a man coming home to find his wife in bed with another man is very common in the US, and it often leads to greater problems, like the man killing both the wife and the other man (granted, it's not by stoning). Let me provide you with what the Qur'an says about women, since you gave me the bible verses.
In regards to adultery/indecency, one needs to have four witnesses that say they saw the woman commit such an act:
In dealing with those who are guilty of:
On taking wives. Here is the verse that gives women permission to marry whom they so choose:
Superiority of men over women is derived from this:
Concerning divorce:
Concerning women's attire:
You see, the West, and many of us, see the wearing of the head scarf (hijab) and other types of clothing commonly worn my middle eastern women as a form of oppression. Yet many muslim feminists see it as a form of empowerment. By wearing the hijab and other types of clothing (or robes to put it simply), a woman is not evaluated on her looks, but on her skills and intelligence in the work force. These "robes" are a way to keep themselves from becoming sexual objects for men. And nowhere in the koran does it describe the type of clothing a woman should wear. Like you said, that varies from region to region. Many cultures within the Muslim world do not force their women to wear any of these robes.
What the Bible/Qur'an say, and what their respective believers do, are two totally different things.
In the Koran, it clearly states that there is only one God, and that both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. (Allah is the Arabic word for God, as Bog is the Russian word for God, as Dumnezeu is the Romanian word for God) The "infidels", or kufr in arabic does not refer to Christians. It refers to Pagans and those who do not believe in the one true God, and those of whom have strayed away from the teachings of God. This is the same definition within christianity. Do you argue the fact that the west has strayed from the true teachings of christianity and is instead chosen parts of it suit it's new traditions? The bible teaches no pre-marital sex, yet how many people have sex before marriage? The bible teaches to be free of carnal thoughts and not lust after one who is not yours, yet look at the booming porn industry. Is it not the defintion of non-believer one who does not follow the teachings of their religion? You yourself quoted "love thy neighbor" yet what love was shown to the Native Americans? As i've said, the difference between what the Bible/Koran says, and what their "believers" do are two totally different things. If you really want to know what the Koran teaches abotu violence and killing, here are some more verses:
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament:
continued in next post...
Women not being allowed to be pastors in some sects of Christianity is significantly different than women being stoned to death for an extra-marital affair. True, in the Bible, it says "Wives submit to your husbands" (Ephesians 5:22-23). To put that into context, look at the next verse. "Husbands, love your wives..." (Ephesians 5:25). That seems to be a different level of difference than a woman being required to be covered from head to toe in robes (from what I have seen, this varies from full coverage to faces exposed, based on the geographic region it seems), while their husbands are not required to do the same.
I like this arguement. But, aren't you comparing what the bible says to what muslims do, and not what the koran says? I mean lets look at what christians have done in interpretation of these verses. Women who had extra-marital affairs were often burned at the stake. The idea of a man coming home to find his wife in bed with another man is very common in the US, and it often leads to greater problems, like the man killing both the wife and the other man (granted, it's not by stoning). Let me provide you with what the Qur'an says about women, since you gave me the bible verses.
In regards to adultery/indecency, one needs to have four witnesses that say they saw the woman commit such an act:
[4.15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
In dealing with those who are guilty of:
[4.16] And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
On taking wives. Here is the verse that gives women permission to marry whom they so choose:
[4.19] O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.
Superiority of men over women is derived from this:
[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Concerning divorce:
[4.35] And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.
Concerning women's attire:
[24:31] And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.
You see, the West, and many of us, see the wearing of the head scarf (hijab) and other types of clothing commonly worn my middle eastern women as a form of oppression. Yet many muslim feminists see it as a form of empowerment. By wearing the hijab and other types of clothing (or robes to put it simply), a woman is not evaluated on her looks, but on her skills and intelligence in the work force. These "robes" are a way to keep themselves from becoming sexual objects for men. And nowhere in the koran does it describe the type of clothing a woman should wear. Like you said, that varies from region to region. Many cultures within the Muslim world do not force their women to wear any of these robes.
In Christianity, we are taught to love our neighbors as ourselves. No where I can think of offhand does it speak about the "infidels" in a derogatory manner. It even says to love your enemies. Perhaps most of us feel that Islam doesn't feel that way. They seem to hate us. And if that's not the case, as you claim, then where is the overt, absolute outrage when innocent people are attacked by someone representing the faith? A one sentence statement of rebuke does not seem to be enough if they are really against the extremists as much as you say. There is no action. Conspicuously quiet seems to be a proper term.
What the Bible/Qur'an say, and what their respective believers do, are two totally different things.
[4.36] And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful
[5:82] Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
[29:46] And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).
In the Koran, it clearly states that there is only one God, and that both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. (Allah is the Arabic word for God, as Bog is the Russian word for God, as Dumnezeu is the Romanian word for God) The "infidels", or kufr in arabic does not refer to Christians. It refers to Pagans and those who do not believe in the one true God, and those of whom have strayed away from the teachings of God. This is the same definition within christianity. Do you argue the fact that the west has strayed from the true teachings of christianity and is instead chosen parts of it suit it's new traditions? The bible teaches no pre-marital sex, yet how many people have sex before marriage? The bible teaches to be free of carnal thoughts and not lust after one who is not yours, yet look at the booming porn industry. Is it not the defintion of non-believer one who does not follow the teachings of their religion? You yourself quoted "love thy neighbor" yet what love was shown to the Native Americans? As i've said, the difference between what the Bible/Koran says, and what their "believers" do are two totally different things. If you really want to know what the Koran teaches abotu violence and killing, here are some more verses:
[2:190-194] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
[5:32]... whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.
[6:151] Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.
Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament:
continued in next post...