Oregon Islamic Center fire declared arson, FBI offers 10K reward

[KomradRazvan]

Thank you for being one of the very few on here who is capable of having a discussion, Mountain Bear. Here is my reply:

Women not being allowed to be pastors in some sects of Christianity is significantly different than women being stoned to death for an extra-marital affair. True, in the Bible, it says "Wives submit to your husbands" (Ephesians 5:22-23). To put that into context, look at the next verse. "Husbands, love your wives..." (Ephesians 5:25). That seems to be a different level of difference than a woman being required to be covered from head to toe in robes (from what I have seen, this varies from full coverage to faces exposed, based on the geographic region it seems), while their husbands are not required to do the same.

I like this arguement. But, aren't you comparing what the bible says to what muslims do, and not what the koran says? I mean lets look at what christians have done in interpretation of these verses. Women who had extra-marital affairs were often burned at the stake. The idea of a man coming home to find his wife in bed with another man is very common in the US, and it often leads to greater problems, like the man killing both the wife and the other man (granted, it's not by stoning). Let me provide you with what the Qur'an says about women, since you gave me the bible verses.

In regards to adultery/indecency, one needs to have four witnesses that say they saw the woman commit such an act:

[4.15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

In dealing with those who are guilty of:

[4.16] And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

On taking wives. Here is the verse that gives women permission to marry whom they so choose:

[4.19] O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straiten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency, and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.

Superiority of men over women is derived from this:

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Concerning divorce:

[4.35] And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

Concerning women's attire:

[24:31] And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.

You see, the West, and many of us, see the wearing of the head scarf (hijab) and other types of clothing commonly worn my middle eastern women as a form of oppression. Yet many muslim feminists see it as a form of empowerment. By wearing the hijab and other types of clothing (or robes to put it simply), a woman is not evaluated on her looks, but on her skills and intelligence in the work force. These "robes" are a way to keep themselves from becoming sexual objects for men. And nowhere in the koran does it describe the type of clothing a woman should wear. Like you said, that varies from region to region. Many cultures within the Muslim world do not force their women to wear any of these robes.

In Christianity, we are taught to love our neighbors as ourselves. No where I can think of offhand does it speak about the "infidels" in a derogatory manner. It even says to love your enemies. Perhaps most of us feel that Islam doesn't feel that way. They seem to hate us. And if that's not the case, as you claim, then where is the overt, absolute outrage when innocent people are attacked by someone representing the faith? A one sentence statement of rebuke does not seem to be enough if they are really against the extremists as much as you say. There is no action. Conspicuously quiet seems to be a proper term.

What the Bible/Qur'an say, and what their respective believers do, are two totally different things.

[4.36] And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful

[5:82] Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

[29:46] And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).

In the Koran, it clearly states that there is only one God, and that both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. (Allah is the Arabic word for God, as Bog is the Russian word for God, as Dumnezeu is the Romanian word for God) The "infidels", or kufr in arabic does not refer to Christians. It refers to Pagans and those who do not believe in the one true God, and those of whom have strayed away from the teachings of God. This is the same definition within christianity. Do you argue the fact that the west has strayed from the true teachings of christianity and is instead chosen parts of it suit it's new traditions? The bible teaches no pre-marital sex, yet how many people have sex before marriage? The bible teaches to be free of carnal thoughts and not lust after one who is not yours, yet look at the booming porn industry. Is it not the defintion of non-believer one who does not follow the teachings of their religion? You yourself quoted "love thy neighbor" yet what love was shown to the Native Americans? As i've said, the difference between what the Bible/Koran says, and what their "believers" do are two totally different things. If you really want to know what the Koran teaches abotu violence and killing, here are some more verses:

[2:190-194] Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

[5:32]... whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.

[6:151] Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

Let me mention just a few verses from the Old Testament and New Testament:

continued in next post...

 

[KomradRazvan]

[Deutronomy 7:1-2] When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgabubblegumes and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them.

[Deutronomy 20:10-17] When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you... Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.

[Numbers 31:17-18] Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves.

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

[Luke 19:26-27] I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.

Could the case not also be made that Christianity is religion of violence?

 

[KomradRazvan]

Komrad R;The first statement in this quote is so inaccurate it looks like propaganda. If the Christians had succeeded there would be no Islamic center to burn (the origin of this thread). The Ottoman Empire brought war to Europe as surely as the Christians brought war to the Middle East. That is fact.

The fact that Islam has spread to Asia, Europe, Africa and North America should also show you that the Nation of Islam does a little "proselytizing" as well...
Murder of Christians? There are plenty of examples..In fact a Christian woman is on death row in Pakistan as we speak for the crime of being Christian.

Your one sided slant is suspect, just as any one sided slant should be.

I don't see the Nation of Islam as a peaceful nation. I know as well as you that there are plenty of violent Christians as well.

Two wrongs don't make a right and sticking up for one side while ignoring the complaints of the other doesn't make you right either.

Oh and look up the Battle of Kosovo if you really want to know how Islam was introduced to the former Yugoslavia.

W44

i actually happen to agree with you on everything but two points. The first being that I don't see Islam as a nation, but rather as a Religion of Peace. The second I disagree with you about is that my point of view is slanted. I never claimed that people from the muslim world didn't do anything wrong. I totally agree with you on that. There are people from all parts that are wrong doers. I am merely pointing out the fact that the majority of muslims are good people who hate violence and love peace and are not us hating, christian killing, terrorists. Just because that is what the western media chooses to show you and portray muslims that way, does not make it real. I refuse to make assumptions based on what someone else tells me. I would much rather find out on my own, and gain first-hand experience. I have done so by reading the Koran and by speaking with many muslims, some foreign, some white, full blooded, americans, who have converted to islam or were born into it.

The reason my argument may seem slanted is because you have to look at whom it is i am talking to. If I ever hear anyone proclaiming the opposite, that America and christianity is bad, and that Islam is the right way and correct way, then I debate with them the opposite, becasue neither view is correct. Neither religion is evil. Neither religion is a violent religion. They both teach peace as the higher road, and they both talk about retribution and dealing with your enemies. The Bible is written as a bunch of stories put together with morals to learn from them, and it is pretty much written in chronological order. The Qur'an, on the other hand, is not written as stories, but rather as teachings. There is very little room for interpretation like there is in the Bible. Perhaps that is why Islam has managed to stay a much purer religion, in the sense that christianity has so many different branches of it and so many different interpretations of it, while Islam only has 2 divisions, and they are not divided on the interpretation of the Qur'an, but rather on who the religious leader should be and how they should be placed into power. (The Shii claim that it should be someone that is related to the Prophet Mohammed and they have to be part of his bloodline, where as the Sunni believe that it should be someone who has experience in the world and knows of righteousness, and they should be elected from amongst the people, and not automatically given the power of religious leader based solely on to whom he was born.) The Qur'an is also not written in chronological order, or the order in which Mohammed received the word of God (Qur'an means recitation). It is instead organized from the longest chapter (Surah) to the shortest.

 

[Wheeler44]

Funny that you agree...I was discussing your statement that Christians have succeeded in destroying the Nation of Islam..

Funnier than that is; I cannot find the post where you stated that.

And your slant certainly appears one sided.

 

[KomradRazvan]

Funny that you agree...I was discussing your statement that Christians have succeeded in destroying the Nation of Islam..

Funnier than that is; I cannot find the post where you stated that.

And your slant certainly appears one sided.

i never did state that christians have succeeded in destroying the nation of Islam... Islam is one of the fastest growing relgions in the world.

I haven't deleted any of my posts either. Are you sure it was me that said that? It doesnt sound like something i would say.

 

[Chee-to]

Quote:

[Deutronomy 7:1-2] When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgabubblegumes and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them.

Quote:

[Deutronomy 20:10-17] When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you... Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.

Quote:

[Numbers 31:17-18] Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves.

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

Quote:

[Luke 19:26-27] I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.
Could the case not also be made that Christianity is religion of violence?

You really should glean your Bible quotes from the "Source" and not some Islamic web site full of misquotes and out of context "Bible" verses.

Bible and Terrorism
(Islamic web site)
As far as [Luke 19:26-27] is concerned, it's a "parable!!"

 

[Trlsmn]

i actually happen to agree with you on everything but two points. The first being that I don't see Islam as a nation, but rather as a Religion of Peace.

I would caution the members that this is proof this guy is just trolling for attention.

No need to respond KR as I'm speaking to the reasonable people reading the thread.

 

[elsullo]

Funny that you agree...I was discussing your statement that Christians have succeeded in destroying the Nation of Islam..

Funnier than that is; I cannot find the post where you stated that.

And your slant certainly appears one sided.

I don't know where you got the reference for the title of "Nation of Islam" but it does not refer to anything in the world-wide history of Islam or to the mainstream definitions of Islam.

The "Nation of Islam" is a black American cult religion developed by Elijah Muhammed and loosely based on real Islam, but with many extreme differences. It originally preached black superiority and black separation, with a creation myth where whites were evolved from an escaped "Frankenstein" creature sponsored by Satan. Not kidding. You may remember that Malcolm X and Muhammed Ali were prominent converts. Over the years the Nation has become more mainstream, though it is still run by Louis Farakahn with a wierd militant tone. You can enjoy his sermons on cable-access tv! As a sect of Islam it has very little credibility world wide. The title "Nation of Islam" is not used outside of this sect..........................elsullo

 

[Trlsmn]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

Quote:


You really should glean your Bible quotes from the "Source" and not some Islamic web site full of misquotes and out of context "Bible" verses.

Bible and Terrorism
(Islamic web site)
As far as [Luke 19:26-27] is concerned, it's a "parable!!"

Good catch Chee-to, more proof that KR is just a Troll.

 

[KomradRazvan]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Even in the New Testament we read the following statement attributed to Jesus saying to his disciples:

Quote:


You really should glean your Bible quotes from the "Source" and not some Islamic web site full of misquotes and out of context "Bible" verses.

Bible and Terrorism
(Islamic web site)
As far as [Luke 19:26-27] is concerned, it's a "parable!!"

sweet. thanks for the link. Good to see that there are others out there who have found the same information i have. Too bad that isn't my source. Please, allow me to enlighten you.

my sources:

[Deuteronomy 7:1-2]

From here.

[Deuteronomy 20:10-16]

From here.

[Numbers 31:17-18]

From here.

[Luke 19:26-27]

From here.

I have had biblegateway.com in my favorites list for quite a while now, as I use it for reference and whenever i need to research and quote something ont he subject. As for the Qur'an, i use The Qur'an Browser at islam.thetruecall.com here is the <broken link removed> .

next time, before you make assumption, you should probably do a little more research.

 

[Wheeler44]

they may have been trying, but christians have succeeded. How many wars have the christians launched on the muslims? look at christian missionaries. Every sect of christianity has missionary groups that go around the world and attempt to convert people to their belief system. Look at the genocide of muslims in former Yugoslavia. THOSE are facts that can't be denied... but a lot of people on this forum seem to overlook it.

KR: I was referring to the rest of the above quote.


elsullo. My bad...religion of peace it is....

 

[elsullo]

I want to recommend an excellent book of comparative religion, "The Religions of Man" by Huston Smith, 1958. He was a Christian scholar who set out to survey all of the world's major religions with some objectivity, using the original texts and prominent scholars of each religion. He took no stand and grinds no axes, and he tried to show the beauty in all faiths.

Islam takes up about ten-percent of the book; no preaching, just one religion among many, reviewed sympathetically. The book is beautifully written, and has been universally used as a college textbook and reference for fifty years. Used paperback copies are availabe everywhere, and it is still published for new sales at bookstores.

It would be a good thing if we all knew more of what we are talking about........................elsullo

 

[Chee-to]

sweet. thanks for the link. Good to see that there are others out there who have found the same information i have. Too bad that isn't my source. Please, allow me to enlighten you.

my sources:



From here.



From here.



From here.


From here.

I have had biblegateway.com in my favorites list for quite a while now, as I use it for reference and whenever i need to research and quote something ont he subject. As for the Qur'an, i use The Qur'an Browser at islam.thetruecall.com here is the <broken link removed> .

next time, before you make assumption, you should probably do a little more research.

Got news for ya, most people here are smellin' what you're trying to spread..:bsflag:

 

[MountainBear]

Komrad, whether by coincidence, geographic problems, misunderstanding, the ratio of Christians who act in dishonorable ways (and there certainly are those) to those who do not seems to be lower than the number of Muslims who act contrary to what you say the Muslim teachings are. I know there are millions of Muslims who act peacefully based on what they believe. However, as I alluded to above, Christians seem to be more assertive in condemning the actions of those in their faith that are contrary to Christ's teachings. I've never felt that the Muslim world has really condemned or appologized for the actions of the extremists in their faith. As John Q. Public, I do not see actions to prevent further actions. What I see are several Middle Eastern and South Pacific Island nations that do little to root out the Al-Quaeda strongholds in their countries. I see celebrations when the terrorists are successful in their endeavors.

As for the way the Muslims act, they seem to be stuck in the past. I suppose if they choose to carry themselves this way in their part of the world, that's their business. If I go to their part of the world, I will respect that. If they come here, I expect the same respect to our traditions. If that is not possible, I would argue that no one is forcing them to come here.

Just my two cents. You may be trolling. I don't really care one way or the other. I will respond respectfully either way.

 

[Trlsmn]

Got news for ya, most people here are smellin' what you're trying to spread..:bsflag:

+1

 

[Jamie6.5]

Let me just toss in a little info on the topic of "What is the Percentage of Muslims that are radicalized"
The following is a survey done by World Public Opinion.org.
<broken link removed>
These folks are straight up academic pollsters from the University of Maryland

WORLDPUBLICOPINION.ORG IS A PROJECT MANAGED BY
THE PROGRAM ON INTERNATIONAL POLICY ATTITUDES
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND

They have polled for groups as progressive as The Center for American Progress.

Here is their board of advisors:

Board of Advisors
I.M. Destler, University of Maryland
Catherine Kelleher, US Naval War College
Fred Steeper, Market Strategies
Gloria Duffy, Commonwealth Club
Anthony Lake, Georgetown University
Daniel Yankelovich, Public Agenda Foundation
Bill Frenzel, Brookings Institution
Benjamin Page, Northwestern University
Alan Kay, Americans Talk Issues Foundation
Robert Shapiro, Columbia University

While you are reading, keep in mind the definition of the term "terrorist."

–noun
1. a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.

Read it for yourselves, and then come back here and try to explain to us all that Islam is a religion of peace, and that the followers of Mohammad are just a bunch of peace loving folks that are trying to get along with Americans. And Sharia? Lookout, it's coming!
And that the percentage of Muslim/Islamist terrorists is one percent or less.
That's a pantload folks! And it's right there in black and white.
Deny it and prove your willful ignorance and blind advocacy.

 

[Trlsmn]

Originally Posted by Trlsmn
If they wish to conduct their lives in this fashion that is their business, if they wish to spread their views across the same world I also inhabit I'm going to push back.

But it is ok for you and your kind to spread your views across the same world they also inhabit? Those islamist extremists... THEY are the ones pushing back. Because lets face it, Western Culture has permiated the Muslim World much greater than the opposite. And who decides which way is right and which way is wrong? You? Me? Them? The Bible? The Koran? The Talmund? The Torah? Who? What?

Please do tell me what me and my kind is.

 

[Buddhalux]

I thought that this sums up Islam pretty nicely in a way that's easy to digest.

LiveLeak.com - 3 Things About Islam

 

[Wheeler44]

Dang...Them folks don't like us, do they?

 

[Chee-to]

Dang...Them folks don't like us, do they?