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One for the Good Guys!

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by GUN1PDX, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. GUN1PDX

    GUN1PDX Portland Metro Member

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    This guy is a good friend of mine. Though I understand one of the bullets went astray, in a stressful situation like that, tunnel vision, and fear can take over. I can also see how this may be used by anti-gun lobbyist...

    Portland store owner starts shooting when robbers demand money
    by Maxine Bernstein, The Oregonian
    Tuesday January 06, 2009, 9:05 PM
    When Portland police arrived at Jonny's Lottery off Southeast 82nd Avenue to investigate an attempted robbery, they found the owner about half a block away.

    He told officers that two masked gunmen had tried to rob his video lottery business, the third time he'd been robbed in as many months. He said he chased the robbers but lost sight of them.


    Officers walked back to the storefront business with the owner and found two of the front windows shattered with bullet holes.

    When police asked what happened, owner John Eklund replied, "Oh, that was probably me."

    An investigation revealed that Eklund was right.

    When the robbers came in demanding money, he pulled out a .45-caliber handgun and started shooting. He fired two bullets at the robbers as they were still in the doorway. He fired two more rounds through his front window as they ran east. Two more slugs whizzed through the walls of a nearby home as Eklund ran after them.

    The robbers did not return fire, but Eklund told police they turned as they fled and pointed their weapons at him.

    Multnomah County Deputy District Attorney Jim Hayden said the Dec. 15 holdup wasn't a typical robbery. "It's unusual that the owner fires back, one, and then hits the robber," Hayden said.

    A man with a bullet wound in the chest was dropped off at Portland Adventist Hospital a short time after the robbery. Phillip L. Kent, 27, was hospitalized for 10 days and then booked into jail. On Tuesday, he pleaded not guilty to a 12-count robbery indictment that accuses him of holding up the business on Halloween, as well as on Dec. 15, when the shooting occurred. A second suspect hasn't been identified.

    Residents of the home struck by gunfire off Southeast 83rd have since moved because of the shooting, and they question Eklund's actions.

    Lloyd Hermfen said his wife was taking a bath and his 3-month-old daughter was asleep around 10:40 that night when a bullet traveled through the laundry room and into a kitchen door. A second round lodged above the front door.

    "I know he has the right to defend his business and property and everything," Hermfen said. "But just him pulling out a gun should have been enough. At least look in the direction where he's shooting the gun. It could have been a lot worse."

    Eklund, 35, did not return repeated calls, nor respond to messages left during visits to his business. According to a court affidavit, Eklund said he had obtained a concealed weapons permit and was armed with a gun for his personal protection. The video lottery business, open from 8 a.m. to 2 a.m., has six machines, a few tables and chairs, and sells beer and wine, as well as egg rolls, burritos and pizza.

    "He believed that those same people had hit his place before, so he was scared," police Detective Sue Kruger said.

    Police reports and a search warrant affidavit say that Eklund continued to fire at the gunmen outside the store and as they ran away. Hayden said Eklund didn't tell the grand jury he continued to shoot while he chased the men. He faces no charges.

    A Multnomah County grand jury indicted Kent on four counts of first-degree robbery and eight counts of second-degree robbery.

    On Oct. 31, two patrons and a clerk were inside the business at 8230 S.E. Harrison St. when two masked men armed with handguns came in. They ordered one woman at gunpoint to crawl on her stomach across the floor and empty her purse. Another patron was ordered to the ground and told to turn over his money and phone. They also demanded the clerk give them cash from the manager's office.

    Eklund told police he was behind the front counter of his business at 10:41 p.m. Dec. 15, with his head down, when he heard someone yell, "Give me all your money!" He looked up and saw one man pointing a gun at him and a second man struggling to remove his gun from his jacket pocket. Eklund ran around the counter, pulled his gun and started firing.

    When the gunmen ran, Eklund told police he followed them north on Southeast 83rd Avenue, toward Harrison Street, shooting at them two more times. He said the men kept looking over their shoulders and pointing their guns at him as they ran. Police seized Eklund's gun as evidence and the business's surveillance videotape that caught some of the shooting on film. No money was taken.

    Taken from: http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/01/portland_store_owner_starts_sh.html
     
  2. PeakResources

    PeakResources Portland (past) Colorado (now) Member

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    From the story:
    Hermfen said. "But just him pulling out a gun should have been enough."

    See the other thread about the guy in the mall. It wasn't enough for him; he got shot for his efforts to provide warning. I agree that this is different because the robbers weren't firing at Eklund, but apparently they were armed and capable of shooting him.

    Good to see Eklund isn't currently facing any charges.
     
  3. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    I think the shop owner made a serious error when he chased the two perps down the street and fired at them. He should have stopped firing when the perps turned and fled. Just my .02.
     
  4. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Robbers gone, stop shooting.

    Better yet, he was shooting as they were running away. "My life was in danger. They were on the move!"

    Take away his permit. He makes the rest of us look bad. :p
     
  5. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    They may have been running and could turn around and fire or comeback. They were armed and dangerous to other citizens who may be around. I was not there, and it is hard to judge an indian if you have not walked in his moccasins. Normal procedure would indicate cover until the police arrive. Then again we were not there an relying on a newspaper report, is very dubvious, maybe the round across the street came from the perps. I would be interested in what kind of ammo he was using in the.45. Hope they catch the other guy. Wouldn't you be a little nervous knowing one of the perps you shot at was still out there. Take his permit away,no, the Grand Jury has spoken. We cannot judge with just our smallbit of info. Bill
     
  6. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    I'm kindof with Bill here, though the shopkeeper was lucky his misses didn't hit anybody as he chased after the robbers.

    We are all responsible for every round we launch down the tube- it would have been difficult to call those outside shots as justifyable if injuries had resulted.

    I've been the victim of violent crime, too, and recently went after a car full of escaping hit-and-run suspects, right after they ran a red light and caused a collision- so I completely understand what happens when you get a good anger going as people try to run from their crime, I might have done the same thing.

    That doesn't mean chasing those robbers was the right or smartest thing to do... I just have been there and responded similarly.
     
  7. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    I think, more to the point, he's shown that he doesn't have the simple skill to USE the weapon he has a right to carry. He shot up someone's house, after all.

    Yes, he has a right to protect himself. But what I see, is that multiple shots were fired, and we only know where one went.

    If you're going to draw a gun, make sure you can at least hit a target. This guy obviously couldn't, under pressure at least, and had no right to try and hit them while they were trying to get away.

    While they were in his store, open season, I agree.
     
  8. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    One should try some shooting-while-running drills to appreciate how difficult it is to hit moving targets with a handgun.
    Police officers have emptied their magazines and missed suspects 10 feet away, for example.
     
  9. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    I do shoot while moving. Straight on, at 45 degree angle, and parallel.

    I do the same with Rifle.

    I can see how it's difficult for someone who doesn't train that way, but does that excuse how easily one of those bullets could have hit someone else?


    I am -very- pro self-defense. Read on any of my posts.

    But you can't just go running after people shooting up the neighborhood.
     
  10. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    I agree that forming a judgment based on the American news media is suspect at best. I do believe that if one of these 'missed' rounds had struck and killed a bystander, the shop keeper would have been charged with manslaughter or even 2nd degree murder. I know it's easy to get caught up in the situation, and the adrenalin flows but with the right to carry comes a responsibility that some take to lightly. Unless your a LEO, you have no business chasing a criminal, or suspected criminal. Just my .02.
     
  11. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    Mudcrate has voiced some concerns & truisms that are absolutely valid.I do Cowboy Action Shooting, on some of the scenarios I've shot we've had a moving target. Not easy to hit a moving target. The most famous film of late is the one were the LEO fires numerous rounds at the felon by his truck and misses. It is not easy to hit a target at close range when the adrenalin is flowing and your life is on the line. I bring the Cowboy Action Shooting up because doing it will increase your skills, plus it is a lot of fun. Bill
     
  12. RainbowBob

    RainbowBob North Seattle Member

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    It sounds like there were more than one stray. I realize that fear and adrenaline can cause unpredictable behavior. That's why we train and try to think through the scenarios we might encounter BEFORE they occur.

    This is all second-guessing - but that's what we do on internet forums. And it's useful for thinking through possible scenarios - so I don't apologize for my opinion, even though I wasn't there.

    And in my opinion: The store owner had plenty of warning (previous attempts) and the opportunity to train and come up with a defense plan.

    Shooting at the robbers during the attempted robbery is justifiable. Once they were out the door he should have locked it, reloaded, and called the cops. None of the subsequent bullets sprayed around the neighborhood can be justified. I'm surprised he isn't being prosecuted.

    It is incumbent upon those of us who believe in the sanctity of the right to self-defense to be certain that we are able to refrain from pulling the trigger when the immediate threat is no longer there.
     
  13. PeakResources

    PeakResources Portland (past) Colorado (now) Member

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    I agree with Bob. Despite my earlier response of "glad no indictment", I agree the owner may have made a number of mistakes, some of which could have landed him in jail (or worse, left an innocent bystander dead). Deadly force is only justifiable when the owner reasonably believes to be in immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm. Once the owner is no longer under that threat (i.e. when the robbers ran out), he must cease the use of deadly force. Thus, Bob's recommended actions seem reasonable.

    I also agree that this is all second-guessing. None of us were there, and the grand jury had the best information available. They chose not to indict, so the owner, er, "dodged a bullet" on this one.

    What we can do is think through the scenario, various ways it could have played out, and what actions we would take. If you were there, how would you react? What if you happened by as the owner was chasing after the robbers? No answers on the board necessary, but having thought through the scenarios may help us react quicker and with more assurance we're taking the correct course of action.
     
  14. holdout

    holdout Close to the city state of P.R. of Portland, Orego New Member

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    First, I'm glad this store owner isn't faceing any charges. He probably should of handled it a bit different in my opinion. However, I don't totally agree with the idea of not giving chase in this situation.

    If someone points a weapon at you at any point in time, regardless of where. They mean to make you submit to their will. Who cares if they don't mean to kill you at that time or not. It is certain they are a threat to your person or someone else at another time. And if they do get away from the first contact with you. Who knows if they won't come back for you or your property some other time. Best to end trouble when it is in your face the first time, than constantly look over your shoulder waiting for it. Although, expect it at any time.

    Shooting someone in the back while they are running away [that was dumb enough to stick a gun in your face] is not legally smiled upon. But on the other hand why should that be a problem for anyone as long as the justification was there. Just because the bumbs ran away from the crime scene doesn't mean it never happened.

    And thank God, no bystanders where hurt during this altercation. It could have been a bad situation for this guy. I do agree a mature and reasonable judgement call is needed in any situation.
     
  15. NWMoss

    NWMoss Lost, permanently... Member

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    Not trying to hijack the thread - maybe this post will start a new one - but if one of us was in a similar situation, who would you retain as legal council? Are there any GOOD pro-second ammendment lawyers in PDX?
     
  16. dady

    dady Portland New Member

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    I am a close friend of John. The liberal media is not to be trusted.

    It's easy to say after-the-fact how someone should have reacted. I'd like to see those people try to REACT to 2 guns pointed towards your head as they violently bust through the door. 2 criminals versus 1 good guy. This situation is very intimidating. People can train at a shooting range or simulate a scenario all they want, but nothing can come close to preparing them for a real situation in which you fear for your life. You have a split second to react, otherwise you will be dead.

    He informed me that all shots fired happened inside the deli. His gun was holstered and he was dialing 911 when he exited the business. Personally, I saw the surveillance video. The media claims he fired shots as he chased the men. Try to imagine him talking to dispatch and holding the phone in one hand, and shooting the gun with the other hand. Not very realistic. The Oregonian is trying to sensationalize the story. If this was true, don’t you think the DA would have charged him with a crime? The DA is not prosecuting any charges because John didn’t do anything wrong. He was down the street only because he was giving dispatch the description and direction of the fleeing suspects. Most people probably wouldn't have stepped outside after it was over and probably hide behind a counter.

    If I am correct, I’m guessing that GUN1PDX knows John Eklund when they both were with the Portland Police Reserve Division. Am I right GUN1PDX?
     
  17. GUN1PDX

    GUN1PDX Portland Metro Member

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    I've known John for years. Yes, we were together at PPB, as well. PM me, refresh my memory.

     
  18. Descendant

    Descendant Eugene, Oregon Member

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    Frangible ammo? I know a lot of people flame on safety slugs, but good for chasing punks down the street. :D
     
  19. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    Good to hear the update on the incident and the correction. The media seems to want to focus on the perps as being the good guys and the victim if he had a gun being the bad guy. Bill