National Once a pistol not always a pistol rule vs "other"

[arakboss]

I understand that if you buy a manufactured rifle that you can not legally convert it to a pistol because it started life as a rifle.

With a manufactured pistol that doesn't seem to be the case as the BATF has said you can convert a pistol to a rifle (with 16+ inch barrel and 26+ OAL) and you can convert it back to a pistol again.

Has the question ever been answered by BATF or Courts, as to whether converting an "Other" firearm (a receiver for example) to a "pistol", "rifle" or "other firearm" and then back to an Other (receiver for this example) again.

For example, I buy a stripped upper from LGS who transfers it as "Other" on question 16 of 4473 and describes type as receiver on question 27. I take it home and build it up as a pistol, a rifle or an other firearm. Later I decide I want a fancier ambi recevier so I strip the receiver down and put it up for sale as a receiver. Any problems with doing that?

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[Alexx1401]

I understand that if you buy a manufactured rifle that you can not legally convert it to a pistol because it started life as a rifle.

With a manufactured pistol that doesn't seem to be the case as the BATF has said you can convert a pistol to a rifle (with 16+ inch barrel and 26+ OAL) and you can convert it back to a pistol again.

Has the question ever been answered by BATF or Courts, as to whether converting an "Other" firearm (a receiver for example) to a "pistol", "rifle" or "other firearm" and then back to an Other (receiver for this example) again.

For example, I buy a stripped upper from LGS who transfers it as "Other" on question 16 of 4473 and describes type as receiver on question 27. I take it home and build it up as a pistol, a rifle or an other firearm. Later I decide I want a fancier ambi recevier so I strip the receiver down and put it up for sale as a receiver. Any problems with doing that?

If the lower was sold as "other" you can do what you want with it. Since if it ever ends up with law enforcement for some reason and they trace it back, it would come back as how it was sold. Now if it was sold to some dealer as a rifle, and dealer then sold it as a rifle? Suppose it would have to stay that way. This gets beaten to death every now and then and I have never quite understood why. If you buy the lower as "other" and are not doing something illegal to get the Government interested in you, then why would they care? Only way I could see this being a problem is if you are knowingly taking a rifle down to an SBR at home, and not papering it with a stamp, and get caught. There seems to be a LOT of people wanting to push the lines and play on the edges or just plain do stuff that they know is illegal. Now they are playing with fire. For those who do not, like me, I do not worry about it.
In other words if you have for some reason Police take your gun, and run it, they are only going to see how you bought it, as "other". What items you have on it at the time they take it who cares? Assuming you did not build something that is not legal where you are. From what I see of people who get in "trouble" with the Feds. They had to really work at it and or blatantly do stuff they knew was crossing lines.

 

[arakboss]

If the lower was sold as "other" you can do what you want with it. Since if it ever ends up with law enforcement for some reason and they trace it back, it would come back as how it was sold. Now if it was sold to some dealer as a rifle, and dealer then sold it as a rifle? Suppose it would have to stay that way. This gets beaten to death every now and then and I have never quite understood why. If you buy the lower as "other" and are not doing something illegal to get the Government interested in you, then why would they care? Only way I could see this being a problem is if you are knowingly taking a rifle down to an SBR at home, and not papering it with a stamp, and get caught. There seems to be a LOT of people wanting to push the lines and play on the edges or just plain do stuff that they know is illegal. Now they are playing with fire. For those who do not, like me, I do not worry about it.
In other words if you have for some reason Police take your gun, and run it, they are only going to see how you bought it, as "other". What items you have on it at the time they take it who cares? Assuming you did not build something that is not legal where you are. From what I see of people who get in "trouble" with the Feds. They had to really work at it and or blatantly do stuff they knew was crossing lines.

I agree with your opinion on this but many believe that if you build a stripped lower in to a rifle first then you can't build it in to a pistol later. That doesn't make sense to me because as you pointed out it wasn't a rifle from birth, it was transferred as other (receiver).

I also agree that if you later transferred the build as a rifle that could complicate things for the new owner.

I have seen a BATF letter indicating you can't convert a manufactured rifle in to a pistol. I could not find any such letters saying that rule/law applied to receivers that were transferred as "Other".

 

[Alexx1401]

I agree with your opinion on this but many believe that if you build a stripped upper in to a rifle first then you can't build it in to a pistol later. That doesn't make since to me because as you pointed out it wasn't a rifle from birth, it was transferred as other (receiver).

I also agree that if you later transferred the build as a rifle that could complicate things for the new owner.

I have seen a BATF letter indicating you can't convert a manufactured rifle in to a pistol. I could not find any such letters saying that rule/law applied to receivers that were transferred as "Other".

The law says you can't turn a rifle into a pistol. So yes, if you go on social media, tell the world that you made a rifle, then turned it into an SBR and did not bother to paper it? Then yes you could manage to get on the wrong side of the law I suppose. You would have to work real hard at it though.
Again the people who get in trouble with the law go looking for trouble. Many of them when they get in trouble of course scream and tell everyone who will listen to them that it was not their fault. <shrug>
This really is not nearly as hard or complicated as many want to make it. Again there is always some who will see the line, and say I just want to walk barely over it. I knew a guy for years decades back who did this. Pushed the rules, tired to blur the lines on NFA stuff. He finally after working really hard at it got on the bad side of the BATF. Then instead of backing off he went full throttle until he managed to get a conviction out of it. Then he ran. They of course caught him later. So again for those who just can't help looking for trouble it's there to be found. You normally have to go looking for it though. I for the life of me do not know why some do but, hey to each his own.

 

[arakboss]

The law says you can't turn a rifle into a pistol. So yes, if you go on social media, tell the world that you made a rifle, then turned it into an SBR and did not bother to paper it? Then yes you could manage to get on the wrong side of the law I suppose. You would have to work real hard at it though.
Again the people who get in trouble with the law go looking for trouble. Many of them when they get in trouble of course scream and tell everyone who will listen to them that it was not their fault. <shrug>
This really is not nearly as hard or complicated as many want to make it. Again there is always some who will see the line, and say I just want to walk barely over it. I knew a guy for years decades back who did this. Pushed the rules, tired to blur the lines on NFA stuff. He finally after working really hard at it got on the bad side of the BATF. Then instead of backing off he went full throttle until he managed to get a conviction out of it. Then he ran. They of course caught him later. So again for those who just can't help looking for trouble it's there to be found. You normally have to go looking for it though. I for the life of me do not know why some do but, hey to each his own.

To clarify when you say that you can't legally turn a rifle in to a pistol are you referring to manufactured rifles only or are you including rifles made at home using a stripped receiver originally transferred as "Other" (receiver)?

 

[arakboss]

The law says you can't turn a rifle into a pistol. So yes, if you go on social media, tell the world that you made a rifle, then turned it into an SBR and did not bother to paper it? Then yes you could manage to get on the wrong side of the law I suppose. You would have to work real hard at it though.
Again the people who get in trouble with the law go looking for trouble. Many of them when they get in trouble of course scream and tell everyone who will listen to them that it was not their fault. <shrug>
This really is not nearly as hard or complicated as many want to make it. Again there is always some who will see the line, and say I just want to walk barely over it. I knew a guy for years decades back who did this. Pushed the rules, tired to blur the lines on NFA stuff. He finally after working really hard at it got on the bad side of the BATF. Then instead of backing off he went full throttle until he managed to get a conviction out of it. Then he ran. They of course caught him later. So again for those who just can't help looking for trouble it's there to be found. You normally have to go looking for it though. I for the life of me do not know why some do but, hey to each his own.

My hang up with the BATF's opinion on not being able to make a pistol from a rifle is that they use the term "originally" (See Q&A below). This leads me to believe that it only applies to rifles manufactured as a rifle.


Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm?
No. A firearm that was originally a rifle would be classified as a "weapon made from a rifle" if it has either a barrel less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches. If an individual wishes to make an NFA firearm, they must first submit ATF Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm), pay a $200.00 making tax, and receive approval of the application from ATF before converting the firearm.

 

[Alexx1401]

My hang up with the BATF's opinion on not being able to make a pistol from a rifle is that they use the term "originally" (See Q&A below). This leads me to believe that it only applies to rifles manufactured as a rifle.


Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm?
No. A firearm that was originally a rifle would be classified as a "weapon made from a rifle" if it has either a barrel less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches. If an individual wishes to make an NFA firearm, they must first submit ATF Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm), pay a $200.00 making tax, and receive approval of the application from ATF before converting the firearm.

Then by all means make yourself a test case. Go on line and show yourself building a rifle out of a lower. Then show yourself building it into a pistol and dare them to do anything. You may well get away with it. Poke that bear long enough and maybe it will bite, maybe it will ignore you. Who knows. Like I said I did know a guy who did just this kind of thing with them. He was playing with a couple of the NFA laws and poked them for years, till they bit him. I don't know if he's still alive but I doubt when he was in prison he still thought it was worth it. He did not have the internet to do it with in those days. Now its FAR easier to go out of your way to get the attention of the Feds for those who are just determined to do so. <shrug>

 

[arakboss]

Then by all means make yourself a test case. Go on line and show yourself building a rifle out of a lower. Then show yourself building it into a pistol and dare them to do anything. You may well get away with it. Poke that bear long enough and maybe it will bite, maybe it will ignore you. Who knows. Like I said I did know a guy who did just this kind of thing with them. He was playing with a couple of the NFA laws and poked them for years, till they bit him. I don't know if he's still alive but I doubt when he was in prison he still thought it was worth it. He did not have the internet to do it with in those days. Now its FAR easier to go out of your way to get the attention of the Feds for those who are just determined to do so. <shrug>

It would be nice if we could get clear answers to these questions so we are not dancing on blurred lines. This is what I am trying to do.

 

[nehalemguy]

Bill Clinton was right about one thing.

"Don't ask, don't tell".

-E-

 

[Member 34319]

@arakboss this thread is awfully similar to the one you made earlier asking pretty much the exact same thing.

I think it's been beating to death.

If you are doing so to avoid WA law, it's a grey area that can be considered in court to be illegal.

Otherwise it was manufactured as a receiver. So yes, it can be torn back down and sold as a receiver.

If your still undecided or uncertain on this matter, stop asking us. Find a lawyer, ask them. Or better yet, write the ATF a clarification letter, since those always go so well!

 

[MannyGlocks]

Why is this a problem?

Want an AR pistol?

Buy one.

Leave your AR rifle...a rifle.

Easy, but some enjoy self inflicted agony.

So...enjoy.

 

[arakboss]

@arakboss this thread is awfully similar to the one you made earlier asking pretty much the exact same thing.

I think it's been beating to death.

If you are doing so to avoid WA law, it's a grey area that can be considered in court to be illegal.

Otherwise it was manufactured as a receiver. So yes, it can be torn back down and sold as a receiver.

If your still undecided or uncertain on this matter, stop asking us. Find a lawyer, ask them. Or better yet, write the ATF a clarification letter, since those always go so well!

For something that has been "beaten to death" we still don't have a clear answer on the issue.

You said: "Otherwise it was manufactured as a receiver. So yes, it can be torn back down and sold as a receiver."

This is the answer I would like to be true, do you have link(s) to info from BATF that confirms this? I have searched pretty hard and can't find any.

Sorry if this thread is redundant, mods are welcome to combine it with any other thread similar to this?

 

[Lasers]

The law part seems pretty clear to me... I am not a lawyer so maybe I'm oversimplifying...

If your lower receiver was manufactured or otherwise later attached to a rifle upper, it is now a rifle lower.

If it was sold as a rifle, the ATF would expect it to stay a rifle unless you pay your tax stamp to change it.

If it was sold as a firearm, made into a pistol, then into a rifle, it would legally now need a stamp to convert the lower receiver back to a pistol.

The point I think most are making here is that the only people who would know you've turned your firearm into a rifle would be those you told, and if you'd like to tell the ATF and then see if they later come make sure you didn't change it to a pistol, let us know what happens.



Legally you if your firearm becomes a rifle, you should not convert it to a pistol without the proper documentation. So just be careful not to convert your firearms unintentionally

 

[nehalemguy]

If it was sold as a firearm, made into a pistol, then into a rifle, it would legally now need a stamp to convert the lower receiver back to a pistol.

Actually not correct. If I started with a stripped lower receiver and first built it into a pistol, I can then convert it into a rifle, and back to a pistol however many times I like without NFA entanglements.

It's when a lower is first built into a rifle that things get strange and fuzzy. Isn't the NFA a peach?

-E-

 

[arakboss]

I am sorry to those who feel this subject of classification and lower receiver status has been beaten to death. Please consider skipping over the thread if it doesn't interest you. I would really like to get settled answers on these topics with BATF references because these questions get asked a lot on various forums and the answers are all over the map, even among FFL's.


Regarding my questions on lower receivers there are only two answers that we can answer with near certainty and provide batf info to confirm.

1. If the receiver was from a firearm that was originally a rifle it can not be converted to a pistol.

2. If the receiver was from a firearm that was originally a pistol it can be converted to a rifle and back to a pistol again.


That leaves us with the question of what "originally" means? We know for sure if rifle was manufactured as a rifle that it cannot be converted to a pistol.

In the case of a home built rifle using new stripped lower receiver, it's less clear. Is a lower receivers "original" classification as "receiver" considered it's "original" status or does it's "original" classification begin once it's built in to a functioning firearm?

What if the firearm was an "other firearm" originally can it be converted in to rifle or pistol?

Can a stripped receiver be purchased and built in to a pistol, a rifle or an "other firearm" and then be converted back to and classified as a receiver again? Some believe this is illegal in the case of converting it back to a receiver from a rifle but no BATF info was provided to back up this idea.

 

[MannyGlocks]

arak,

You're absolutely correct about skipping the thread if not one's cup of tea, but sometimes a bit of gentle huevo-busting can bring elucidation.....

 

[arakboss]

Actually not correct. If I started with a stripped lower receiver and first built it into a pistol, I can then convert it into a rifle, and back to a pistol however many times I like without NFA entanglements.

It's when a lower is first built into a rifle that things get strange and fuzzy. Isn't the NFA a peach?

-E-

fuzzy is right. My guess was that it only applies to receivers that were manufactured as rifles and the serial number tied to that lower receiver would show the classification as rifle in the creation books. But I can't find any info to prove that one way or the other. It depends on the how the term originally is interpreted in this language:

Can I lawfully make a rifle into a pistol without registering that firearm?

No. A firearm that was originally a rifle would be classified as a "weapon made from a rifle" if it has either a barrel less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches. If an individual wishes to make an NFA firearm, they must first submit ATF Form 1 (Application to Make and Register a Firearm), pay a $200.00 making tax, and receive approval of the application from ATF before converting the firearm.


I am reluctant to contact BATF for clarification and I am hoping somebody else has already done so but haven't found the answer yet.

 

[Member 34319]

I guess my curiosity is why are you in need of this answer so badly to create 3-4 threads on it.

I think Dan @Sporting Systems gave a pretty clear answer in one of the other threads. Avoiding the new WA law, illegal. Selling a lower you bought as a lower, not illegal. Intent is the benefactor

Besides, if you are trying to go around a law, or not I have no idea what your trying to accomplish other than getting an answer, your internet trail on the matter now is quite large.

Id be timid to purchase anything AR15 receiver related because of it.

 

[Lasers]

Good reads, I was always under the impression once you used a "firearm" receiver as a "rifle" receiver, it was then a rifle receiver until converted. The ATF seems, in action at least, to not care to much, since there is no formally required process for you to re-register a firearm that's now been made a rifle.

 

[arakboss]

I guess my curiosity is why are you in need of this answer so badly to create 3-4 threads on it.

I think Dan @Sporting Systems gave a pretty clear answer in one of the other threads. Avoiding the new WA law, illegal. Selling a lower you bought as a lower, not illegal. Intent is the benefactor

Besides, if you are trying to go around a law, or not I have no idea what your trying to accomplish other than getting an answer, your internet trail on the matter now is quite large.

Id be timid to purchase anything AR15 receiver related because of it.

This has nothing to do with WA law, these are Federal regulations I am trying to sort out? I am putting together a cheat sheet to try and clear up configuration questions that come up often and I'd like to have clear answers that can be backed up. While I appreciate Dan's time answering my questions in another (but similar topic), some were at odds with other FFLs and he did not provide links to BATF info backing up his interpretations. It would be easy for you to skip over this topic if it doesn't interest you.