National Once a pistol not always a pistol rule vs "other"

[Lasers]

I stand corrected, this seems pretty clear cut:

Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm?

Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length.

Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such configuration would not be considered a "weapon made from a rifle" as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 5845(a)(4).
[26 U.S.C. § 5845, 27 CFR § 479.11]

 

[arakboss]

My recommendation to those building an AR rifle, that they may want to convert in to a pistol one day is this. Build the entire firearm except for installing the stock. By attaching a completed upper to a completed lower minus the stock, you have yourself a pistol. Admire your pistol for a bit and you can even take it out for some one handed shooting. Once you are ready for a rifle you can install the stock and now you have your rifle. Since you originally built it as a pistol you can feel free to go back and forth between pistol and rifle configuration all you want.


Step 1 build your pistol:



.

Step 2 Convert to rifle:





Rinse and repeat.

 

[FourTeeFive]

If purchased and transferred as an "other" receiver, it will always remain such. Doesn't matter what you do with it so long as it doesn't become papered as a new weapon (SBR, for example). So if you make a rifle, then turn it into a pistol, then strip it and make it a paperweight, then sell it, you're still selling an "other" receiver.

 

[arakboss]

If purchased and transferred as an "other" receiver, it will always remain such. Doesn't matter what you do with it so long as it doesn't become papered as a new weapon (SBR, for example). So if you make a rifle, then turn it into a pistol, then strip it and make it a paperweight, then sell it, you're still selling an "other" receiver.

I am strongly leaning towards your view on this subject but too many others believe that the original classification changes when building a lower receiver in to a rifle before any other type of firearm. For that reason I am trying to find BATF info that backs up your view.

 

[nehalemguy]

My recommendation to those building an AR rifle, that they may want to convert in to a pistol one day is this. Build the entire firearm except for installing the stock. By attaching a completed upper to a completed lower minus the stock, you have yourself a pistol. Admire your pistol for a bit and you can even take it out for some one handed shooting. Once you are ready for a rifle you can install the stock and now you have your rifle. Since you originally built it as a pistol you can feel free to go back and forth between pistol and rifle configuration all you want.


Step 1 build your pistol:

View attachment 713439

.

Step 2 Convert to rifle:


View attachment 713440


Rinse and repeat.

Start with a pistol buffer and tube. Not a rifle tube.

-E-

 

[arakboss]

Start with a pistol buffer and tube. Not a rifle tube.

-E-

Why? SBA3 and SBA4 braces both fit on the standard tube.

 

[FourTeeFive]

I am strongly leaning towards your view on this subject but too many others believe that the original classification changes when building a lower receiver in to a rifle before any other type of firearm. For that reason I am trying to find BATF info that backs up your view.

It could never be proved. Right now I have two 9mm AR receivers sitting on my bench. One will become a carbine, one will become a pistol. I have enough parts to build up both as pistols. So I could build them both up as pistols, then put a different barrel and buffer tube on one of them and it is now a rifle. How long does it have to be a pistol "first" before I change it to a rifle? 15 seconds? 15 months? You see where I'm going with this...

 

[FourTeeFive]

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

 

[arakboss]

It could never be proved. Right now I have two 9mm AR receivers sitting on my bench. One will become a carbine, one will become a pistol. I have enough parts to build up both as pistols. So I could build them both up as pistols, then put a different barrel and buffer tube on one of them and it is now a rifle. How long does it have to be a pistol "first" before I change it to a rifle? 15 seconds? 15 months? You see where I'm going with this...

I do see where you are going. But when somebody ask why it's legal or not to convert to a pistol from a rifle they already built, I would like to be able to provide an answer that I can back up. It's could be that it is perfectly legal as you suggested in previous post and that would be good to know.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

pistol to rifle back to pistol.

dont email the atf. just gives them more to think about

 

[FourTeeFive]

I do see where you are going. But when somebody ask why it's legal or not to convert to a pistol from a rifle they already built, I would like to be able to provide an answer that I can back up. It's could be that it is perfectly legal as you suggested in previous post and that would be good to know.

It's a bit convoluted, but after reading that ATF document it looks like it has the info you're looking for. I'm glad you brought up the subject because I have thought about it in the past but never bothered to look it up. Now we both know.

 

[arakboss]

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

I think that could be one part of the answer. It also makes me wonder why nobody has come out with a kit that contains an AR pistol and included an AR stock and 16+ inch upper. That way you could convert back and forth as desired with out worrying about the convoluted laws.

 

[FourTeeFive]

I think that could be one part of the answer. It also makes me wonder why nobody has come out with a kit that contains an AR pistol and included an AR stock and 16+ inch upper. That way you could convert back and forth as desired with out worrying about the convoluted laws.

I seem to remember some other sets being sold like this years ago, but honestly I think it is for manufacturer liability. When it is all there in a box it means you also have an SBR in the box.

 

[FourTeeFive]

Also found this:

Can I lawfully make a pistol into a rifle without registering that firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Assuming that the firearm was originally a pistol, the resulting firearm, with an attached shoulder stock, is not an NFA firearm if it has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length. Pursuant to ATF Ruling 2011-4, such rifle may later be unassembled and again configured as a pistol. Such...

www.atf.gov

 

[arakboss]

I seem to remember some other sets being sold like this years ago, but honestly I think it is for manufacturer liability. When it is all there in a box it means you also have an SBR in the box.

Right and the link you provided indicates that's ok but I could see where companies would worry about somebody assembling it in the wrong way. Rifle stock with pistol upper.

 

[arakboss]

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

I am thinking this might not apply to the AR lower issue because it appears this kit came with the contender pistol already assembled. I wonder if the kit came with the receiver separated from both barrels and grips/stocks if there would have been another issue raised. That would be more analogous to the issue I am trying to solve.

 

[FourTeeFive]

This certainly describes an AR "other" receiver. The test case was for the Thompson Contender years ago.

"Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length."

 

[arakboss]

This certainly describes an AR "other" receiver. The test case was for the Thompson Contender years ago.

You very well could be right, I am just wondering about the whether the being built as a pistol first requirement applies before this takes over and allows you to go back forth.

 

[FourTeeFive]

As an aside, a buddy of mine had a bunch of Thompson Contender stuff back in the day, and I remember he had a 14" barrel 30-30 pistol. I shot it once. That was enough.

 

[arakboss]

As an aside for me I spoke with FFL dept at Brownells today and confirmed they are transferring barreled receivers as barreled receivers. I heard back from two high end barreled action sellers via email today as well. One said they transfer barreled receivers as calibered receivers and the other company said they transfer barreled receivers with 16+ inch barrels as rifles. I replied back and asked them about barreled receivers with less than 16 inch barrels but haven't heard back.

It's end of day for me.