Occufight, anyone going to watch?

[shibbershabber]

Real issues to ponder instead of this stupid "movement" about nothing:

• Kagan, Obamacare, and the Supremes
• Israeli Attack on Iran could risk Gulf oil supplies
• Energy Dept. pushed firm to keep layoffs quiet until after midterms
• GOP members call on Eric Holder to quit

All valid issues. But none of them are going to put money in our pockets.

But...

There was a bill that would have ended tax breaks on companies who offshored jobs... why didnt that pass?
Why is Social Security only taxed up to $102k?
What happend to the various 'buy American' provisions?
Do oil companies really need 4.5 BILLION in federal subsidies each year? ($45B/10yrs)
Corporate Welfare Information Center Heres info on about $150B in corporate giveaways... via your tax dollars.
Why oppose minimum wage? Why do you whine about union wages? You have no problem with so-called 'job creators' raking in the welfare and profits. But when working class people demand higher wages we are villified?
They say we cant be competitive when we pay union wages... no one can compete with $1/day... so whats your solution?

Im sure you all believe in American exceptionalism... but where does it end? To me, that means we have the best, most innovative industries supported by the highest trained best educated workforce that can be had. That they all make enough money to live comfortably without the fear of going broke, losing their job, having a solid retirement, passing on the same lifestyle to their kids. That we have a service industry to support them, that also make decent wages and can support themselves. I also think that we can have a successful universal single payer heathcare program in this country. It would take the burden off of business and individuals who can shell out hundreds of extra dollars per month. A strong SS system so that we dont have our elderly finishing their life in poverty, etc.
We can do it all... this is AMERICA. But it seems that you all want to have things funneling to the top at the expense of the majority of the country. Its a race to the bottom and instead of demanding your piece of the pie... you want to see everyone else lose their pie too so that a handful of people can take the whole thing.
You dont want regulation on business, yet you want to regulate people. A corporation is a person. People are governed by rules, regulations and laws. Yet to suggest that a corporation be restricted by the same, you see that as a bad thing. You conservatives was small government when it comes to infrastructure and taking care of your fellow citizens... yet you want BIG BIG BIG government to police the world, enforce trade policies that put us out of work, you want Big Brother @ the altar deciding who can marry, you want Big Brother making all decisions about what you can and cant do with your body. You Big Govt watching every step you take so you can be safe from 'terrorists'...........



Back when the top corp tax rate was @ 90%... wages were high, 30% unionization, banks were still regulated, the rich still got richer, businesses still grew, things were still made in America, etc. You didnt hear any of the BS that you do today. President Johnson had his 'Great Society' and the 'War on Poverty'... We didnt have the massive unemployment that we do now, we didnt have the massive homeless problem that we do now. People had jobs and for the mostpart life was good for middle America. You could get on with a company and work your way up via on the job training... you could get on with a construction company and learn a trade... But thanks to deregulation and govt sanctioned corporate greed we are in the largest recession since the 1930s...



We've been the biggest and baddest for years... militarily speaking. Now its time that we lead the way in other areas as well.

 

[JackFrost]

But thats just it. It is a ridiculous list though it has a few good points. You post it as if it is a true LIST OF DEMANDS and then poke fun at it. You are still failing to see my point. That is the opinion of an individual. You chose not to let the rest of us know, you posted it as if it were the gospel of Occupy... and that isnt the case.

So if you werent trying to portray this one persons opinion as the mission of an entire movement. What was it you were aiming for?

I was "aiming" to provide more information to the mindless blather that this movement has decended into! I have NOT visited any camp/park that the "occupiers" called home. My entire view on the whole movement I stated earlier in this thread, I don't like being spoken for by a minority of people whose anger and frustration at the system brings them together. I will be the 1st to agree that there are MANY problems that this country faces, and the social and economic injustices that are perpetrated by government and corporate entities are horrible an a moral and legal level. But I firmly believe that this type of discourse or whatever you choose to call it is NOT patriotic at all, of they have a right and good for them for exercising it, but what the small business that have had their cash flow interupted? what about all the people that have been trying to get back and forth to work who have been held up for hrs? What about all the property damage in Oakland?
Again I am merely trying to point out that so many other people who are still working, want to work, trying to earn a living, are affected by this in a negative fashion!

If you can not see that the collateral damage they are inadvertantly inflicting on the rest of society then I am sorry, there is nothing else I can do to explain it. I don't want to start a war of words with you or anyone else for that matter! The ONLY reason I chimed in on this thread is on the 2nd page where a member states that the OWS "speaks for every American" and I resent that statement. If you had a problem with my posting of the demands that I can not help, I can only tell you I did NOT intentionally censor anything to slant an agenda, mine or anybody elses for that matter!
I hope this better explains my position!

 

[The B]

astonishing... the posts in this thread are not only not tapering off after 9 long pages, they're growing longer..

 

[rufus]

There was a bill that would have ended tax breaks on companies who offshored jobs... why didnt that pass?

Government corruption. They should stop using taxes as tools for social engineering. I'm a fan of ending all tax breaks, they just provide incentive for more corruption.

Why is Social Security only taxed up to $102k?

Social Security is a huge problem. If you are getting more than $102k from SS, something really stinks. I wish Social Security did not exist at all.

What happend to the various 'buy American' provisions?

Government corruption.

Do oil companies really need 4.5 BILLION in federal subsidies each year? ($45B/10yrs)

Heck NO! I'm not a fan of federal subsidies. Stop the spending!

Corporate Welfare Information Center Heres info on about $150B in corporate giveaways... via your tax dollars.

Again, stop the spending!

Why oppose minimum wage? Why do you whine about union wages? You have no problem with so-called 'job creators' raking in the welfare and profits. But when working class people demand higher wages we are villified?

Minimum wage laws only hurt the poor. IMO there should be no minimum wage.

They say we cant be competitive when we pay union wages... no one can compete with $1/day... so whats your solution?

My "solution" involves getting government out of the way, not "fixing" it with even more regulations. Let businesses do their thing and they will excel. Over taxing and regulating them results in your $1/day made in China scenario. Whatever the government touches turns to poo. The less they touch, the better.

You think taxing corporations 90% is going to somehow put money in your pocket? And you think the economy is bad now, just imagine.

Over & out.

 

[rufus]

I think the mods have done a good job with this thread. By not shutting it down when they might have thought about it, they let things work themselves out, and that is a good thing in my book. Most if not all of us are big boys, we can take a jab or two without flying off the handle. It's only discussion.

This forum has quite a mix. Healthy debate, however stupid, should help us understand our differences. How boring would it be if everyone here had the same opinion on everything?

Oh yeah, guns!

 

[shibbershabber]

Not applicable. It's a symptom, not the problem.

SO you at least see this as a real issue. The symptom is a problem. The cause is collusion between government and large corporations. They put people in office who will legislate to their needs. You and I have very little power in the process aside from choosing the lesser of two evils, in our opinion anyway. No matter which side you support... you are either swayed by wedge issues that never get resolved one way or another or you are buying into one world view as opposed to the other. Both sides are selling you out... they just tell you different lies to get elected.

All due to the government intervention in one way or another. And who do you direct your rage towards? Those evil corporations, private entities. It's all the governments doing! Misdirected anger, what a shame.

Not quite. I am directing my rage at both. The corporations who buy up elections and sell out American workers and I also rage @ the politicians that are no better... and at times they are one in the same. They all draw from the same pool.

Hate the "tea party"? Love the "occupiers"? Why? I say it's blind allegiance. You've got it backwards. It must be nice to stand up for a cause that is undefined. It could be this, or it could be that, depending on the circumstances. No matter what, you are correct. How convenient.

I dont support a lot of what the TP stands for. I support Occupy becuse it is heading in the right direction... it hasnt been bought out and taken over by special interests yet. The message of income inequality resonates with me as it does the rest of the country. Their message isnt refined. But the basics are there. They arent contradictory, they just have too many thoughts at this point. I expect that in the future there will be a more focused, coherent message.

The bigger the government gets, the worse the problem will become. "The corporations" only react to the rule changes that the corrupt lawmakers enact. The very same lawmakers, by the way, that YOU elect. How dumb is that?

The corporations influence the legislative process with their army of lobbyists. You agree that the politicians are corrupt... who do you think corrupts them? They are corrupted by the endless flow of money... from corps and special interest groups representing them. The people you end up voting for and the people I end up voting for all take money from the same people. Dont kid yourself.

 

[shibbershabber]

I was "aiming" to provide more information to the mindless blather that this movement has decended into! I have NOT visited any camp/park that the "occupiers" called home. My entire view on the whole movement I stated earlier in this thread, I don't like being spoken for by a minority of people whose anger and frustration at the system brings them together. I will be the 1st to agree that there are MANY problems that this country faces, and the social and economic injustices that are perpetrated by government and corporate entities are horrible an a moral and legal level. But I firmly believe that this type of discourse or whatever you choose to call it is NOT patriotic at all, of they have a right and good for them for exercising it, but what the small business that have had their cash flow interupted? what about all the people that have been trying to get back and forth to work who have been held up for hrs? What about all the property damage in Oakland?
Again I am merely trying to point out that so many other people who are still working, want to work, trying to earn a living, are affected by this in a negative fashion!

If you can not see that the collateral damage they are inadvertantly inflicting on the rest of society then I am sorry, there is nothing else I can do to explain it. I don't want to start a war of words with you or anyone else for that matter! The ONLY reason I chimed in on this thread is on the 2nd page where a member states that the OWS "speaks for every American" and I resent that statement. If you had a problem with my posting of the demands that I can not help, I can only tell you I did NOT intentionally censor anything to slant an agenda, mine or anybody elses for that matter!
I hope this better explains my position!

That'll work, thanks for the clarification.

 

[marty8587]

Smell the Love......

 

[shibbershabber]

Government corruption. They should stop using taxes as tools for social engineering. I'm a fan of ending all tax breaks, they just provide incentive for more corruption.

As mentioned before, Where does Government corruption come from? You and I?
No, it comes from massive amounts of money that flow out of the private sector and into congress. These corporations and spec.int. groups have the power to influence legislation and elections.

Social Security is a huge problem. If you are getting more than $102k from SS, something really stinks. I wish Social Security did not exist at all.

No one makes that from SS. SS tax is withheld from only the first $102k of your personal income. So basically, if you make more than that per year, you dont pay SS tax on it. Wonder why we have solvency issues? Well not really, SS can pay out @ 80% indefinitely. But that can be for another thread.

No SS? What do you suggest? Privatize it... Chile tried that and their privatization plan ended up costing tax payers millions. It sounds like a good soundbite but whenever its been tried, it does not work.

Government corruption.

See above.

Heck NO! I'm not a fan of federal subsidies. Stop the spending!



Again, stop the spending!

We can agree on that. Subsidies like that do not benefit taxpayers at all.

Minimum wage laws only hurt the poor. IMO there should be no minimum wage.

I would L O V E to hear this.

My "solution" involves getting government out of the way, not "fixing" it with even more regulations. Let businesses do their thing and they will excel. Over taxing and regulating them results in your $1/day made in China scenario. Whatever the government touches turns to poo. The less they touch, the better.

You think taxing corporations 90% is going to somehow put money in your pocket? And you think the economy is bad now, just imagine.

Over & out.

As mentioned previously... You seem to believe that govt is the problem. Govt is the problem because they are corrupted. They are corrupted by money, big money from big corps... easy right? Well take the money out of the equation and you have solved the problem.
The govt is a failure because it has been legislated into a weak top heavy mess. Government can work, if it is allowed to. But the right wing agenda is a self-fulfilling prophecy. They weaken government to the point of breaking and stand back and say " hey look, government cant do anything right " It wasnt always this way.


Would you say that our post -WWII economy was better than today's? Was government more sensible and the average man had a better spot in life? More ability to work a stable job and support his family? buy a house, have a decent car? maybe have a pension? send his kids to school?

I dont think any of us could disagree with that... Back then, the corporate tax rate was 91% ... yeah, thats right. We 'liked Ike' for a reason.
Eisenhower was a sharp guy, and called it right. From the tax policy to his parting words about the military-industrial complex. Ike would be a RINO to guys though...

Higher rates promote slow & steady, sustainable growth. Business has to reduce its taxes through write offs... expanding facilities, hiring employees, raising wages, otherwise reinvesting in their businesses instead of playing fast and loose with everything and making as much money as possible as fast as possible all while dodging taxes in anyway possible... leaving the rest of us with the bill.

 

[rufus]

I would L O V E to hear this.

<broken link removed>

 

[shibbershabber]

<broken link removed>

Of course you cite something from a notorious right wing thinktank...

Minimum wage is good for business
http://letjusticeroll.org/sites/default/files/resources/Raising%20Min%20Wage%20in%20Hard%20Times%20Oct%2027%202010.pdf

Ill leave you with those for now... Ive got to go back to my non-minimum wage job

Ill find some good lefty arguments to counter your CATO Institute jive later on

 

[rufus]

That's the same mentality as the Beck fan comment earlier in this thread. Instant disqualification due to the source, the heck with the message. You can keep your leftie arguments to yourself, I've already seen them.

 

[shibbershabber]

That's the same mentality as the Beck fan comment earlier in this thread. Instant disqualification due to the source, the heck with the message. You can keep your leftie arguments to yourself, I've already seen them.

Sort of like the mentality of this whole thread. Disqualification due to the source. There are some here that agree with some parts of the Occupy message for one reason or another... but you discredit them as lefties, hippies... and there is no way you could support an idea that comes from such a person.

All we just did was post other people's opinions. And we can do that all day... the internet is full of links that we can post to back up our point of view.


SO, to get to the heart of the matter, which may have been overlooked in my other post.


You say that a higher tax on corporations will ruin the economy worse than it is now. I answered that with a little bit of history... I await your response.

 

[rufus]

You say that a higher tax on corporations will ruin the economy worse than it is now. I answered that with a little bit of history... I await your response.

What are you talking about?

 

[armedredneck]

Wow.

There's alot here to absorb. Alot of interesting points from both sides.

Both sides of gov shovel the same poo with different perfume sprayed on it. The masses eat up either flavor.

The gov is completely corrupt. It shouldn't matter WHO is offering them money, the buck stops with our elected officials. (They ARE the ones running our country). If they are corrupted by the money, then THEY shouldn't be there. They also shouldn't be writing and enacting laws that give corporations a reason to offer THEM money.

That's why I refuse to vote for an incumbent. "Career Politicians" is where the problem lies. Enact term limits and vote ALL incumbents out. It would take the money out of politics real quick. And most of the corruption would probably follow. I'll write my dog's name in if I have to......(It's THAT bad now).

So.......with all that said......

The occupy movement does not even come close to speaking for me as an American.

I smirk every time I hear that they're "gassing" and pepper spraying lazy commie hippies......

Makes my entire day.

If they can't hang out in the city parks at least they won't be homeless. They can go back to occupying DHS, the employment office, and the curb in front of Circle K.

 

[michaels]

Hi redneck, it is not entirely clear from your post with what you mean both sides. It seems to me that to many people are making a false split on what OWS stands for. There is definetly anger at corruption in govt. Equal to anger at undue corporate influence on our lives. The mainstream media is guilty, as they often are when reporting radical left or right movements, of misrepresenting this movement and striving to maintain a failed status quo. Let us have differences of opinion, but keep in mind, that whether you are right or left, our system has failed us all. I keep commenting here, because I am happy, even if I do not agree with all of this movement, people are coming together to figure out what is wrong.

 

[shibbershabber]

Rufus, You said...

You think taxing corporations 90% is going to somehow put money in your pocket? And you think the economy is bad now, just imagine.

Then I said...

"Would you say that our post -WWII economy was better than today's? Was government more sensible and the average man had a better spot in life? More ability to work a stable job and support his family? buy a house, have a decent car? maybe have a pension? send his kids to school?

I dont think any of us could disagree with that... Back then, the corporate tax rate was 91% ... yeah, thats right. We 'liked Ike' for a reason.
Eisenhower was a sharp guy, and called it right. From the tax policy to his parting words about the military-industrial complex. Ike would be a RINO to guys though...

Higher rates promote slow & steady, sustainable growth. Business has to reduce its taxes through write offs... expanding facilities, hiring employees, raising wages, otherwise reinvesting in their businesses instead of playing fast and loose with everything and making as much money as possible as fast as possible all while dodging taxes in anyway possible... leaving the rest of us with the bill. "

 

[rufus]

... leaving the rest of us with the bill.

You mean Obama's jobs bill. Lots of incentives to hire, though only for one year. Remember the jobs bill, the one to "pass right away"? Whatever happened to that? What a weak president.

Nope, increasing tax rates from what, 35%, to over 90% is not going to promote slow and steady sustainable growth. It will, however, finish off the businesses that have not yet relocated overseas as well as dramatically increase the price on most everything, including food. That should help the poor, right?

We should take this over to the politic site, it has nothing to do with guns or the OP. Go here: <broken link removed>

 

[armedredneck]

Hi redneck, it is not entirely clear from your post with what you mean both sides. It seems to me that to many people are making a false split on what OWS stands for. There is definetly anger at corruption in govt. Equal to anger at undue corporate influence on our lives. The mainstream media is guilty, as they often are when reporting radical left or right movements, of misrepresenting this movement and striving to maintain a failed status quo. Let us have differences of opinion, but keep in mind, that whether you are right or left, our system has failed us all. I keep commenting here, because I am happy, even if I do not agree with all of this movement, people are coming together to figure out what is wrong.

By both sides I mean the only "both sides" in this country. The two evils we have to choose between. Right and Left.

If there is anger at corruption in govt, then why aren't they putting the pressure on at the govt. offices instead of the financial institutions? Again I say, the buck stops with the elected officials running our govt. Cut and dry. Getting mad at the the institutions that are corrupting the govt. is just like blaming beer for drunk driving. Blaming guns for crime. etc.... Same line of thinking. How about holding accountable those who are ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE?

.....and I don't see anybody coming together to figure out anything. Just amassing, looking for a reason to rebel against "the man", itching for a fight, and looking for a handout. None of these people have any viable solutions. It's a complete joke. I don't see how anyone from "the left" with an ounce of brains left in their head could look at this mess and be proud of it. I mean really, these guys look like complete derelicts in any interview given. No intelligence whatsoever. No stated goals and no map to achieve them. Just........."corporations are baaaad maaaannnn, pass the doobie".

To call it a political movement, or a protest, or anything that lends it any credence whatsoever, is a complete overstatement. It's just dirty hippies and welfare kids blocking traffic......and nightly entertainment when I hear about the cops whuppin' that hippie azz.

 

[The B]

how we ever came to a point where you can operate business under a fictitious legal entity with no individual personally accountable for the conduct of said business is beyond me. obviously, some very rich and very influential men put their heads together and made it happen before the good citizens of America became enlightened.

this is going to sound bizarre and ridiculous to most of you, since corporations have existed for all your life, all your parents' lives... but the solution to much of the world's problems is quite simple- ban corporations.

yea, yea... bans never solve anything. but it'd be my argument that you can't transfer all your legal liability and moral responsibility to a fictitious entity to begin with, therefor banning the corporation as a legal entity is not actually "banning" anything- it's simply returning accountability to those who make the decisions. boards of directors would think twice before making illegal/immoral decisions if they would be held personally accountable for the decisions they made.. legally or civilly.

big move... would be a world-wide paradigm shift, and probably result in conglomerates taking their operations overseas; their executives renouncing their American citizenship to avoid absentee prosecution for their crimes and tax evasions.. sounds fine to me.

---

and yes, i also realize that corporations are the ones who make the legislative decisions in this country, not "freely elected representatives," and therefor this ban on corporations will never happen. but what's the point ever talking about anything, if we don't think our good ideas will ever work? every great idea starts as a pipe dream.