Washington Now... about transporting a Shockwave...

[rjmt]

here is the letter from the BATF on the factory Mossberg 590 Shockwave:

http://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

and when one member stated we don't register pistols in Washington, he was correct
what I meant was that I had to transfer it as a pistol and list it on my state form as a pistol
and a notice on the actual Mossberg box list it as a pistol grip firearm

I don't intend to carry mine in Vancouver or Portland, but the Sheriffs and Forest Rangers I run into out in Rural Clark and Cowlitz counties tend to be firearm savy.

 

[The Heretic]

Last time I bought a rifle in WA (Vancouver) I only had to fill out the 4473 as I recall.

 

[rjmt]

After reading the BATF letter several times, it does state that if this firearm (Mossberg 590 Shockwave) is carried concealed, the classification MAY change.
after walking up and down the hills of my property for 2 days with this Shockwave on a single point sling under my jacket, it's not very comfortable - have a bruise on my leg. will be a moot point for me - going for a backscabbard.

 

[The Heretic]

After reading the BATF letter several times, it does state that if this firearm (Mossberg 590 Shockwave) is carried concealed, the classification MAY change.
after walking up and down the hills of my property for 2 days with this Shockwave on a single point sling under my jacket, it's not very comfortable - have a bruise on my leg. will be a moot point for me - going for a backscabbard.

I think what most people are considering these for is a self-defense gun carried loaded within a vehicle. Personally, I would prefer a pistol. A 26" short barrel shotgun is rather unwieldy within the confines of a motor vehicle.

 

[Alexx1401]

After reading the BATF letter several times, it does state that if this firearm (Mossberg 590 Shockwave) is carried concealed, the classification MAY change.
after walking up and down the hills of my property for 2 days with this Shockwave on a single point sling under my jacket, it's not very comfortable - have a bruise on my leg. will be a moot point for me - going for a backscabbard.

It's not the Feds idea on these that has me waiting, its the state. Here in WA we can carry a pistol loaded with our permit. No matter what the Feds do it's the State of WA that I am going to be curious about. Since these things are selling well I suspect it should not take long for a "test case" to come up. Someone is going to be found to be carrying one concealed or loaded in a vehicle. That will be what will get the judges going on this. Will be interesting to see how it's ruled. If the State of WA does decide to make these a handgun so they could be carried in a car? Well I would most likely be out buying one.

 

[Koda]

Dont worry guys, the bad guys are just as confused about this as we are.... They are waiting to hear from the law dogs too before they head out to the bank.

 

[rjmt]

I think what most people are considering these for is a self-defense gun carried loaded within a vehicle. Personally, I would prefer a pistol. A 26" short barrel shotgun is rather unwieldy within the confines of a motor vehicle.

OK, just so happens I have a shockwave and a bunch of different vehicle out here on the farm. Ensuring the firearms was unloaded, I tried manipulating the Shockwave in a sedan, pickup, minivan, full size cargo van and my wife's new Subaru Outback (caught Hell for that). As Heratic stated, this thing is very cumbersome in the confines of a vehicle. Tried from the seat, the back floorboard, the front floor, dashmount, from behind the truck seat, If you plan was to carry it loaded, but exit the vehicle to use it, that will work, but - just to say I did, I fired it out the window of my truck with a defensive 00 buck load. Your definitively not doing that without serious ear protection. The shockwave is not a one handed firearm, and in those close quarters was hard to manage in recoil and your range of motion for aiming out the window is very restricted.
OK, now I can say I fired my shockwave from a vehicle, I can move on with life. I purchased this firearm for entertainment - shooting cans and hay bales, sheets of plywood, old fence post and scaring off coyotes at night. I have much more manageable firearms for CCW.

 

[Alexx1401]

OK, just so happens I have a shockwave and a bunch of different vehicle out here on the farm.
OK, now I can say I fired my shockwave from a vehicle, I can move on with life. I purchased this firearm for entertainment - shooting cans and hay bales, sheets of plywood, old fence post and scaring off coyotes at night. I have much more manageable firearms for CCW.

If the State ( I highly doubt this will happen) was to decide these shotguns were hand guns I will buy one to be able to carry in a vehicle. Never even considered being able to use it while seated in a vehicle though. I keep a PCC in the vehicle I am driving and of course just do not have a mag in it which makes it legal in this state. On those too I never even thought of trying to load and use it while in the car or truck though. That's what the handgun I carry is for. Even with that I would be trying my best to be able to get out of the car before I had to use it.

 

[TCOV]

Register?

There is no official registration of guns in WA state.

Before I act like a Shockwave is a "pistol" I would like to see the official rule/regulation WA state law cite that says that these guns are pistols.

If you are referring to the designation that gets sent into the state when you do a transfer, that does not necessarily count. It does not in Orygun.

It would actually be kind of kewl if that were true, especially if Orygun did this too, but last time I asked about that here, the answer was no for Orygun.

The point is that regardless of what the ATF says about them, state laws regarding carry will probably consider these to be a shotgun, even though technically the ATF says they are not.

There certainly is registration of handguns in WA when a transfer occurs thru a FFL. The dealer I bought my Shockwave from wasn't sure how the state classified it and filled the state papers as if transfering a handgun but thought it might be AOW.

 

[rjmt]

Last updated November 14, 2017.

Firearms dealers in Washington are required to keep a record of every handgun sold, in a book kept for that purpose, which must be personally signed by the purchaser and the seller, each in the presence of the other.1 The record must contain the date of the sale, the caliber, make, model and manufacturer's number of the weapon, the name, address, occupation, and place of birth of the purchaser and a statement signed by the purchaser that he or she is not ineligible to possess a firearm.2 One copy of the record must be sent within six hours by certified mail to the chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser resides.3 A second copy must be sent within seven days to the state director of licensing, while a third copy must be retained by the dealer for six years.4

My FFL asked the state Licensing office and was told the Mossberg Shockwave is to be registered as a pistol

RJMT

 

[Alexx1401]

There certainly is registration of handguns in WA when a transfer occurs thru a FFL. The dealer I bought my Shockwave from wasn't sure how the state classified it and filled the state papers as if transfering a handgun but thought it might be AOW.

Your dealer told you he "thought it might be an AOW"??? Does he have any idea what an AOW means?

 

[The Heretic]

There certainly is registration of handguns in WA when a transfer occurs thru a FFL. The dealer I bought my Shockwave from wasn't sure how the state classified it and filled the state papers as if transfering a handgun but thought it might be AOW.

Official registration are records kept by the gov. on every firearm owned, not just those transferred. California has an official registration system for certain types of firearms. Whether you bought them there, owned them before the system went into place or you brought them in from out of state, you are required as a resident to register certain types of firearms. Get caught possessing unregistered firearms and you are in trouble.

What you are speaking of is a de-facto registration of transferred firearms and is not an official registration system. However, as more and more time goes on, a higher percentage of firearms make it into the system. If you bring firearms in from out of state or you owned them before the law went into effect, you do not need to register them - yet.

 

[rjmt]

and you just outlined another reason I moved out of California!!
born and bred in California - as a kid we could carry rifles out the door in Riverside and walk up into the hills
used to shoot targets on the back side of the hills above UCR and on Box Spring Mountain
try that today

 

[Caveman Jim]

It's not the Feds idea on these that has me waiting, its the state. Here in WA we can carry a pistol loaded with our permit. No matter what the Feds do it's the State of WA that I am going to be curious about. Since these things are selling well I suspect it should not take long for a "test case" to come up. Someone is going to be found to be carrying one concealed or loaded in a vehicle. That will be what will get the judges going on this. Will be interesting to see how it's ruled. If the State of WA does decide to make these a handgun so they could be carried in a car? Well I would most likely be out buying one.

Not true, we can carry a loaded pistol without a permit.

 

[TCOV]

Your dealer told you he "thought it might be an AOW"??? Does he have any idea what an AOW means?

It came up in across the counter conversation as he prepared the background check process and was considering whether to call it a shotgun. I questioned that description based on what I had read and we agreed it was not a shotgun. The ATF paperwork included talks about AOW but their legaleeze language is not easy to understand to a dummy like me but I understood the part that it is a legal firearm and not NFA. I don't care what the dealer knows as long as I take the firearm home.

 

[Alexx1401]

Not true, we can carry a loaded pistol without a permit.

Did you even read anything I wrote here? Did you read anything in this thread? Perhaps title of thread? What I "thought" we were discussing is the classification of the shock wave type shotguns. Some are "claiming" they were "told" WA is calling these a handgun. In WA state you can't carry a long gun loaded in your vehicle. So I said I was going to be interested in whether the State of WA actually did this, decided these were handguns. Since all I am seeing so far is people with no citations claiming they were "told this". So I am not willing to make myself a test case and try. As I said I have little doubt someone is going to be found with one of these loaded in a vehicle or carried concealed. When that happens it will most likely end up in court. That is what will be interesting to see shake out. Now is that clear enough? If, and I highly doubt this will happen, WA did decide these are a handgun I will be buying one just because I could carry in loaded, concealed in my vehicle.

 

[Gunnerboy]

Shockwave IS NOT A PISTOL.. Say it with me NOT A PISTOL, It is an OTHER, the third box on a 4473. It is neither a shotgun/rifle nor a handgun. Just like a pistol grip factory "shotgun" is a OTHER until you attach the buttstock then it becomes a Shotgun. This is not a idea nor a myth nor a thought it is Fact. After filling out close to 3k 4473's and dealing with feds for 6yrs In the class 3 realm and otherwise i can tell you with 100% certainty it is a OTHER. WA state would see it as a shotgun and there fore fine you for having it loaded.

 

[The Heretic]

People jump to conclusions.

Just because someone is told to check the box "handgun" or "pistol" on a form by a bureaucrat does not change the law on the books and it does not mean a judge and/or jury and/or DA will side with you interpretation of that action/direction to mean that the law has somehow changed due to how a bureaucrat told you to fill out a form.

Until the AG of WA state, or some judge makes a decision in a suit or trial, or the legislature passes an amendment, the law does not change. This is yet to happen, so the issue is up for debate.

I personally would not bet my freedom on what someone posts on a forum or what an FFL said or what a bureaucrat said about how to fill out a form. Additionally, I think it is not very relevant. I personally would not even believe a lawyer until such time as there was something official on the subject from the government.

Unfortunately I see this all too often - people jump to the conclusions they want to confirm. They only hear what they want to hear. Myself, I prefer reality and I am especially careful about it when it comes to my freedom. I have not been there, but I don't want to be arrested, go to court, or wind up in jail or prison. I don't even want to see my name in a court decision on the issue.

So wait until some poor idiot gets test the law and we will see what the outcome is.

IMO, if the state is forced to, they will say for their purposes that these are shotguns - if they ever do say anything; I think they are as reluctant to address the issue as anybody else. If they say it is a shotgun then what about short barreled shotguns? If they say it is a pistol, then that allows us to carry it loaded or even concealed and they do not want that. They can't say it is a rifle. They can't say it is a SBS because then what about all the people who possess one across the USA, including WA and OR state?

It is a mess and they most likely want to avoid it altogether, except maybe to eventually ban them or force them to be registered or have a special permit. You may see this come about this year as they try to pass the gun legislation they are talking about.

My short answer is that I would treat it like a shotgun, not a handgun despite what some FFL and/or bureaucrat said.

 

[Alexx1401]

People jump to conclusions.


It is a mess and they most likely want to avoid it altogether, except maybe to eventually ban them or force them to be registered or have a special permit. You may see this come about this year as they try to pass the gun legislation they are talking about.

My short answer is that I would treat it like a shotgun, not a handgun despite what some FFL and/or bureaucrat said.

Since Algore invented the internet this has been a problem. People get online and make some kind of claim and others take it as "truth". I well remember when I finally got my Father to get his own PC. He was forever calling or coming by to ask me to look something up. Finally convinced him to just buy a PC. He loved it but right away we several times had to have this talk. Dad just because you read it somewhere means nothing. He at first thought everything he read was like reading the news papers. Did not at first understand anyone could say anything, and anyone could make up a website and say anything.
This has never been worse than "questions and answers about gun law". Some of what I have seen makes me cringe to think that some are going to follow it. On the old Usenet boards one day guy said he bought a tool box at an estate sale. In it he found a suppressor. The Description he gave sure sounded like he had found one of the ones the Military used to supply with the old HS HD's. The answers he was getting as to what to do with it were all over the place. I told him cut it into pieces and get rid of it NOW. If he tried to follow what many "experts" were telling him he would have at best spent some time in jail, at worst ended up convicted.

 

[rjmt]

just saying, my FFL called Olympia and we filled out my 4473 for the Mossberg Shockwave as a pistol
this was just 2 weeks ago and it was not rejected

has anyone else actually filled out a 4473 in the state of Washington and NOT listed theirs as a pistol?
I already posted the letter from the BATF in which they state it is NOT a shotgun

so, we are not to believe our FFL or a bureaucrat on the phone from the Washington state Licencing Bureau or the document from the BATF to Mossberg?

well, I have mine, the State and my local sheriff knows I have mine and no one has pounded on my door at 0400 in the morning wanting it back.

whatever you want to call it - it REALLY fun to shoot!!

RJMT