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Nightmare firearms sale and jerk FFL

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by PlayboyPenguin, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I recently sold my Colt Anaconda to another board member. I did not want to sell it to them at first since they are not local and I did not want to ship it. They convinced me they would cover shipping and that they did not mind the added cost so I agreed to do it.

    In our e-mails they asked about the FFL fees on both ends and I told them that the only FFL fees would be on their end since I would not use an FFL. I would simply pay the extra money to ship it overnight via FedEx. That accepted this and continued with the deal. Their FFL faxed his license to my home and everything seemed in order so I shipped the gun.

    A couple days later I get a call from his FFL telling me they will not accept the gun because I violated federal law by mailing it to them without an FFL on my end. The guy on the phone said "I am turning the #@%&^ gun over to the law." I told him that federal law did not disallow individuals from shipping a gun to an FFL and that it was pretty sad he did not know this. he hangs up on me and then calls me back about 15 minutes later telling me that they will not take it because I violated their "store policy." I told him to talk to his customer and decide what they were going to do. He says "I am rejecting this package and having it sent back."

    That was over three weeks ago.

    Now I keep getting e-mails from the buyer defending his FFL saying "he goes by the book" and that I should not have sent it myself and that he did not know I was doing that. I referred him to our e-mail conversations where I clearly stated that was exactly what I was doing and that it was legal. This guy has no right to be mad at anyone except for the jerk he chose to use as an FFL. It is not my fault he chose the cliche' jerk gun dealer.

    So now it has been three weeks and the FFL on his end has not returned the gun and keeps threatening to turn it over to police on his end. I spoke to an ATF rep yesterday and they said the FFL has already violated the law by holding the gun this long and that what I did was totally legal.
     
  2. willseeker

    willseeker N. Portland. Well-Known Member

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    Jeepers! The plot sickens!

    Let us know how it turns! Too bad you're going through this.

    Will
     
  3. AWS44

    AWS44 N.P. Or. Member

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    Good luck! I can not stand people like that. Did the ATF rep say that they would do anything? Did you receive payment?
     
  4. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I did receive payment and the rep asked for the FFL's info which I have not given them yet.
     
  5. NoAim

    NoAim Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    If it makes any difference, when I've had to do that, I've called the receiving dealer directly to specifically ask, "will you accept a shipment from an individual (i.e. a non-FFL)". I've had some say no, most say yes.

    This way I don't have to rely on the buyer to make that clear.
     
  6. aflineman

    aflineman Both South of Eugene and East of Portland. Active Member

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    I have had a similar issue. That is part of the reason I will only do a FTF transaction (when selling or trading my stuff) from now on. I don't mind ordering stuff in, but sending my stuff out tends to worry me.
    I hate to say it, but it might come down to reporting the firearm stolen and getting the ATF involved. (That is more or less what I had to do).
     
  7. Silver Fox

    Silver Fox Puyallup, WA Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmmmm..... this doesn't help the xenophobic attitudes some members have recently formed with all the new guys from FL and others from outside the PNW states. Too bad.

    PBP- I have been working with FFL gun shops off and on for many years and what the ATF told you was correct. You (the private individual seller) can send a handgun, overnight just not through the USPS (only FFL dealers can do that... go figure) to a FFL dealer for them to transfer to an individual (known as the buyer).

    Be patient, I am sure this is going to work out in your favor with a couple of apologies coming your way. The buyer should have asked the question (pay attention if you are thinking of sending firearms out of state) to his local FFL; "Do you accept firearms from private individuals for transfer?". In this case the buyer did not ask that and the buyers FFL apparently has a problem with receiving firearms from out of state private individuals. It is there choice not to receive firearms from private individuals and the buyer should have known that.

    Caveat Emptor!

    SF-
     
  8. AWS44

    AWS44 N.P. Or. Member

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    I do not see any reason not to give info to rep! This guy broke the law and that is now his problem:twocents:
     
  9. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    Well you have the law and money on your side so I would say you have the high ground!
     
  10. Oakley1wa

    Oakley1wa Beaverton, Oregon, United States Member

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    Keep us informed on how this turns out... If you manage to get any of that information
     
  11. AWS44

    AWS44 N.P. Or. Member

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    Why would he need to report it stolen? He was payed for it. It should be between the ffl and the buyer!:twocents:
     
  12. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I do not want to leave the buyer in a bad situation so I am willing to have the gun returned to me and refund his money. I just do not feel that I should be the one putting forth all the effort to make it happen. I gave the buyer contact info for my local FFL but he keeps insisting this is between me and his FFL and he does not want to step into it.
     
  13. TonsOfOregonBrass

    TonsOfOregonBrass Sandy, OR Active Member

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    That FFL is a tool. If you are going to return the money, then you should turn in the information to the ATF. They work well with FFLs and the guy will listen or they will not renew his license. I know if they tell me to do something i am doing it.

    If it has been three weeks and you have not got the gun back, ask him what the tracking number is, whether he is going to transfer the gun to the buyer, or if you are going to need to report the gun stolen, as it is at this point and report its location to your local ATF office.
     
  14. AWS44

    AWS44 N.P. Or. Member

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    I do not think it is between you and the ffl! The buyer messed up and he needs to take care of his end. The ffl broke the law according to the ATF rep. It just seems to me that they are in the wrong and you are in the wright. This is my two cents and i am not an expert! Sorry about your bad sale.
    AWS
     
  15. elsullo

    elsullo Portland Oregon New Member

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    Why not give the buyer's FFL info to the ATF rep? A simple phone call from the ATF would settle everything and the buyer would get his prize. That FFL could get educated by the ATF, and not necessarily penalized. And if he is penalized---so what? If he's too stubborn to read his own license documentation then he is no loss. He has already burned you and the buyer! In any case, he paid and you shipped---YOUR responsibility is done......................elsullo
     
  16. TOVO

    TOVO SW WA. Active Member

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    What a drag. I will ask the question now before I ever send a gun to an FFL.
     
  17. NoAim

    NoAim Hillsboro, OR Active Member

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    Never invite "the man" into your dealings unless it's absolutely necessary.

    While I applaud PP for trying to do the buyer right, in the end, he shipped it to the buyer's FFL as requested and, I'm assuming, has cash in hand already.

    My take would be to let the buyer and FFL work it out as they need and not step on their toes.

    If the buyer wants something else done, it sounds like PP would be willing to help.
     
  18. kenr74

    kenr74 Oregon Active Member

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    Seems like your responsibility ended once you shipped the gun. The FFL has the buyers property at this point. Sounds like the buyer and FFL need to deal with it.
     
  19. Weebs

    Weebs Clackamas County Member

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    Since it is a board member of NWFA just point him to this thread so she can see that you should be out of the loop now PBP.

    It's unfortunate for the buyer though.
     
  20. SAMS SHOOTERS EMPORIUM

    SAMS SHOOTERS EMPORIUM lake havasu city, az New Member

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    Firstly, I am the so-called Jerk FFL by the self proclaimed unlicensed gun dealer "penguin". Just about every statement made by him is false. He was informed that we only acceopt firearms from licensed FFL's which he assured us he was. He is not! He was never treated with anything but respect until he Mike Foxtroted my employee Pam. We cannot return a firearm to a non-licensee unless, "it was sent for repair or refinishing". It was not. Penguin has stated that he sells several handguns weekly and never uses an FFL. I would like for him to state that to his local BATF agent. We are one of the two largest gunshops in AZ. We are audited frequently and always pass with flying colors. That is public record and I will supply my agents number if so desired. We are Title 1, Class 2 and class 3 as well as class 72. I know the law and besides knowing the law, our store policy has always been not to accept firearms from non-licensee's for this exact reason. I will not be out $30.00 to return the gun to a non FFL, Look at our records on auctionarms, ebay *********** several times to get a resolution but all we get is ********** is my @#$%$%^^& FFL get one from him!" I cannot find anyone named ********** in the phone book or on DEX. I think he is a fabrication of *************who hides behind 'Penguin' in the same way he hides behind his answering machine and screens his calls. Put up our shut up ***************
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2009