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dont use FFLs who hold on to the firearm during the background check, problem (for you) is solved. I prefer the FFL hold the Firearms, I dont want to schedule with the buyer/seller twice to receive a firearm waiting on a background check for a private party transfer is a PITA enough.
the state is wrong in continually passing more and more laws. laws become a tax, that people lie to themselves about to convince themselves they are doing the right thing, just like paying taxes, people lie to themselves to convince themselves they are helping others when in reality they are only helping prop up the govt, who lets face it, is horrible with funds.
"Background check" LOL. My FFL uses my concealed handgun license in lieu of a background check. Anyone with a valid CHL is exempt from the NICS check.
 
"Background check" LOL. My FFL uses my concealed handgun license in lieu of a background check. Anyone with a valid CHL is exempt from the NICS check.
Horribly incorrect, similar to everything else you've been posting since you joined yesterday
Clown world sh!t, right there.
totally believable that Californians break federal and state law in the name of obtaining a firearm, because they have basically been robbed of their rights.
 
You said earlier about not filling out a 4473. You still need to do that in a free state. You are posting in a forum that mostly covers WA and OR where there is no exemption for chl anymore, and you're location is listed as San Francisco.

Yes in some states chl let's you take it without a nics check after filling our 4473, but not the 2 main states this forum covers and not the state you're from.

Give mommy back her laptop and eat your veggies troll
 
As many of you know I am a pretty consistent buyer and trader of firearms. I went in to purchase a gun from a fellow member on here. We met up at Money market pawn. Pretty solid place. Anyway I started to fill out the 4473 and Peter the owner explained to me there " new rule" to which I replied "what is the new rule?" Apparently they will no longer hold the firearm for you. Now this is a HUGE problem. Luckily I am always instant approval. But the problem remains. For example, two parties meet up to complete a transfer buyer fills out paper and is put in the que. Firearm goes home with seller. Seller and buyer have to meet up for a second time with the FFL in order to complete the transfer. I asked him if this rule was strictly for his establishment he said because people are apparently failing background checks and because you have to complete a transfer back to the original owner a significant amount of people are just abandoning said firearm to which the FFL is now stuck with possession. What do y'all think of the situation? I see both sides but man does that suck for avid buyers and traders!
I have a home FFL and it's not the money for the transfers that is the problem it the coordination for gun pickup and meeting with the person. It requires me to be at the house for a signature and I have a full time job. if I'm not there they try three times and it goes back. If I do get the gun which some times I have no idea its coming, have to schedule a time to meet with the person who rarely is on time and I have to waste more of mine. If they don't pass right away then I hold the gun till it goes through. Oregon says after three days you can give it to the person if it still hasn't gone through. The ATF says that's not a good idea and I agree. I've held guns up to six weeks.

After all that I recommend going to another FFL or buying direct, so the FFL has more invested in the sale making a bigger profit. Actually the best idea is to become an FFL yourself!!!!
 
I have a home FFL and it's not the money for the transfers that is the problem it the coordination for gun pickup and meeting with the person. It requires me to be at the house for a signature and I have a full time job. if I'm not there they try three times and it goes back. If I do get the gun which some times I have no idea its coming, have to schedule a time to meet with the person who rarely is on time and I have to waste more of mine. If they don't pass right away then I hold the gun till it goes through. Oregon says after three days you can give it to the person if it still hasn't gone through. The ATF says that's not a good idea and I agree. I've held guns up to six weeks.

After all that I recommend going to another FFL or buying direct, so the FFL has more invested in the sale making a bigger profit. Actually the best idea is to become an FFL yourself!!!!
You sound butthurt.
I have requested the paperwork read it all, know the "ins and outs", if I do follow through with an getting my FFL, it would be all about getting folks their firearms.

I'd have a relationship with my customers, the delivery people, and my distributors.
I'd honor the 3day rule because I would be dealing with repeat customers and close friends. I would keep my prices low as possible. I'd also try and talk people into top tier firearms instead of cheap stuff.

when dealing with the state I would ask customers to come at an hour when other shops are closed, normally after 6pm and as late as 10pm. I'd call in my background checks as much as possible to insure a timely transfer. Even if I made sure to take a day or two of the week to get that done, the pick ups would be scheduled ASAP but also at my leisure.
I have had people question why I don't have one (FFL) and people that think I am one, it's to the point where I'm starting to think it would be worth. Not to be that guy who's trying to get rich, but more as a community service.
 
Having to pay to exercise a Constitutional Right is in no way legal. How this has been allowed to continue is beyond my understanding. They can't even pretend that it is a fee charged by the FFL, when the Government (Federal and State) are requiring it.

Paying a fee to vote was outlawed long ago, and the 2nd Amendment is much more specific about the right to "keep and bear arms."
Paying a poll TAX is unconstitutional, paying a fee for the government to facilitate a process has been deemed to be acceptable if it's not exceptional or unusual.
 
Don't understand. Doesn't every FFL call it in? You fill out the paperwork and then they call the info in for the background check
It all goes into the same computer system at OSP/WSP. Calling it in, is for the counter guy that likes to look busy waiting for a State Patrol clerk to do his typing for him. Exact same machine. Exact same processes. Exact same output, but takes more time waiting for the clerk to type it out.
 
This does indeed sound shady. Because whoever is the last guy "on paper" should have possession of the gun until such time as the transfer to the next guy actually takes place. Isn't this spelled out in administrative instructions to dealers some place? .
Once the firearm is left with the FLL, its on the books. That's federal law.
 
I don't have experience working for an FFL so maybe I'm off base but on the question of holding or not, I think one should consider it from the FFL's side. What happens in this scenario?:

-Seller sells $900 gun to buyer, leaves with the money.
-Buyer goes into queue for 4 days.
-Seller has already spent the money and can't return it even if they wanted to.
-Buyer fails BGC.
-Is the seller legally obligated to return the money?
-FFL has headache of angry guy who is out $900 and can't take possession of gun and a seller who can't/won't return money.
-Law enforcement probably has to get involved in some capacity.

I could understand why the FFL might take the stance that nothing changes hands until and approval.
THIS!!! More issues with transfers than any other process. In WA it gets even more complicated because of the 1639 and 1240 rules.
 
I used to use these guys a lot for sales to oregon guys. Now I'm not. Hassle.

I called ahead and told them I was coming down to do a ppt and they did not make me aware of this new rule over the phone. It was a ridiculously low-dollar item and I had to drive back to WA with it and wait 4 days to drive back. 120 mins total of drive time LOL! cost more than I made on the gun.


What's strange is when I was there, I overheard the older Asian guy (who I think is the owner) talking to the younger Asian guy (I was eaves dropping) and they were going back and forth about how the ATF was coming later that day to do an inspection and to make sure everything was correct. They both seemed a little agitated (granted I would be too if ATF was coming to inspect my biz)

The older white gentleman was doing our transfer. Once they told us I had to hold onto my item, I said "okay well i guess that's fine, I'll leave you with the accessories just give me the money today since it's yours. Ill come back when youre approved" The buyer gave me the money, and the older Asian gentleman came over a little stressed and said "please, don't exchange money in the store just do that outside since we don't know what will happen with the background check. Please do that somewhere else away from the store"


I think they are stressed about something legal, not sure what though.
All ATF inspections are unannounced. You don't know they are coming until they flip open their badge holders.
 
I called ahead and told them I was coming down to do a ppt and they did not make me aware of this new rule over the phone. It was a ridiculously low-dollar item and I had to drive back to WA with it and wait 4 days to drive back. 120 mins total of drive time LOL! cost more than I made on the gun.
Well, just about like any firearm transaction at Cabela's.

The older white gentleman was doing our transfer. Once they told us I had to hold onto my item, I said "okay well i guess that's fine, I'll leave you with the accessories just give me the money today since it's yours. Ill come back when youre approved" The buyer gave me the money, and the older Asian gentleman came over a little stressed and said "please, don't exchange money in the store just do that outside since we don't know what will happen with the background check. Please do that somewhere else away from the store"
I've seen this attitude here in Wash. since private transfers have been required to go through an FFL. I've never been sure what it's about except to think that the FFL dealer can later deny any knowledge of who did what with money. Said another way, they didn't want any involvement if a dispute over payment later came up.

Once the firearm is left with the FLL, its on the books. That's federal law.
So is it legal for an FFL dealer to start the BGC without having the firearm in possession?

THIS!!! More issues with transfers than any other process. In WA it gets even more complicated because of the 1639 and 1240 rules.
Yes, this is an understandable result. Because there is always going to be someone come along who knows he is a prohibited person but tries a ppt anyway. Or some twist in the legal system, like an error with someone's BGC, can crop up. I can see this being particularly a problem with ppt in person. Because the prohibited person doing it in person probably thinks, "if this goes bad, I'll still have my money." Which they wouldn't be so apt to do it ordering a gun through Gunbroker or similar. Because in that case, the money has to be sent off.
 
I don't have experience working for an FFL so maybe I'm off base but on the question of holding or not, I think one should consider it from the FFL's side. What happens in this scenario?:

-Seller sells $900 gun to buyer, leaves with the money.
-Buyer goes into queue for 4 days.
-Seller has already spent the money and can't return it even if they wanted to.
-Buyer fails BGC.
-Is the seller legally obligated to return the money?
-FFL has headache of angry guy who is out $900 and can't take possession of gun and a seller who can't/won't return money.
-Law enforcement probably has to get involved in some capacity.
Yeah, as a seller, I'd not be inclined to return any monies exchanged until if and when I got my goods back.

Recourse for the buyer in this case would be court. Probably small claims court. If it involved a prohibited person, the cause of the loss of funds would be on that person, I'd think. The seller was acting in good faith. FFL may make out, gets to place lien on the property involved and eventually take it over as unclaimed.
 
So is it legal for an FFL dealer to start the BGC without having the firearm in possession?
Yes. The dealer can retain or not. If kept, and the transfer is denied, returning to the seller can be problematic. Background check fee (state's money), paperwork and waiting periods, never mind if there there are other complications due to interstate, etc (like a pistol being returned to an Oregon seller, from a WA dealer...we have to ship it to an Oregon FFL and then the seller has to do a transfer there to get their money back.)

Yes, this is an understandable result. Because there is always going to be someone come along who knows he is a prohibited person but tries a ppt anyway. Or some twist in the legal system, like an error with someone's BGC, can crop up. I can see this being particularly a problem with ppt in person. Because the prohibited person doing it in person probably thinks, "if this goes bad, I'll still have my money." Which they wouldn't be so apt to do it ordering a gun through Gunbroker or similar. Because in that case, the money has to be sent off.
This is how we can tick people off through no fault of our own. We get the black eye because a buyer couldn't pass a background check. It's a lose lose situation for the FFL.
 
You said earlier about not filling out a 4473. You still need to do that in a free state. You are posting in a forum that mostly covers WA and OR where there is no exemption for chl anymore, and you're location is listed as San Francisco.

Yes in some states chl let's you take it without a nics check after filling our 4473, but not the 2 main states this forum covers and not the state you're from.

Give mommy back her laptop and eat your veggies troll
California, oddly, does have a BGC exempt permit, but it only covers temporary transfers "loaned to the permitholder for use solely as a prop in a motion picture, television, video, theatrical, or other entertainment production or event."

Maybe our OP is going to claim they collect under the pretext of perpetually shooting a movie?
 
Paying a poll TAX is unconstitutional, paying a fee for the government to facilitate a process has been deemed to be acceptable if it's not exceptional or unusual.
Paying a poll TAX is unconstitutional, paying a fee for the government to facilitate a process has been deemed to be acceptable if it's not exceptional or unusual.
Paying a fee to exercise a Constitutional Right seem to have been enshrined in the bureaucracy, but the same reasoning that outlawed the poll tax applies to the right to keep and bear arms. The reasoning is that the poll tax (poll fee intended to offset the cost of elections) discriminated against the poor. Just like the objections to (free) voter ID discriminates against the poor.

Do you have to pay a fee to the government to get a trail? Do you have to pay a fee to the government to exercise your religion? These are constitutional rights. Just like the right to keep and bear arms.

Edit to add, this issue is before the Supreme Court right now, in a less direct way. The approval of background check fees was made at a time when the Courts rubber-stamped all sorts of government overreach, and that overreach is being addressed now.
 
As many of you know I am a pretty consistent buyer and trader of firearms. I went in to purchase a gun from a fellow member on here. We met up at Money market pawn. Pretty solid place. Anyway I started to fill out the 4473 and Peter the owner explained to me there " new rule" to which I replied "what is the new rule?" Apparently they will no longer hold the firearm for you. Now this is a HUGE problem. Luckily I am always instant approval. But the problem remains. For example, two parties meet up to complete a transfer buyer fills out paper and is put in the que. Firearm goes home with seller. Seller and buyer have to meet up for a second time with the FFL in order to complete the transfer. I asked him if this rule was strictly for his establishment he said because people are apparently failing background checks and because you have to complete a transfer back to the original owner a significant amount of people are just abandoning said firearm to which the FFL is now stuck with possession. What do y'all think of the situation? I see both sides but man does that suck for avid buyers and traders!

You sound butthurt.
I have requested the paperwork read it all, know the "ins and outs", if I do follow through with an getting my FFL, it would be all about getting folks their firearms.

I'd have a relationship with my customers, the delivery people, and my distributors.
I'd honor the 3day rule because I would be dealing with repeat customers and close friends. I would keep my prices low as possible. I'd also try and talk people into top tier firearms instead of cheap stuff.

when dealing with the state I would ask customers to come at an hour when other shops are closed, normally after 6pm and as late as 10pm. I'd call in my background checks as much as possible to insure a timely transfer. Even if I made sure to take a day or two of the week to get that done, the pick ups would be scheduled ASAP but also at my leisure.
I have had people question why I don't have one (FFL) and people that think I am one, it's to the point where I'm starting to think it would be worth. Not to be that guy who's trying to get rich, but more as a community service.
I'm not butt hurt I'm just trying to let them see the other side. You know walk a mile in the other persons shoes before you criticize.
You sound butthurt.
I have requested the paperwork read it all, know the "ins and outs", if I do follow through with an getting my FFL, it would be all about getting folks their firearms.

I'd have a relationship with my customers, the delivery people, and my distributors.
I'd honor the 3day rule because I would be dealing with repeat customers and close friends. I would keep my prices low as possible. I'd also try and talk people into top tier firearms instead of cheap stuff.

when dealing with the state I would ask customers to come at an hour when other shops are closed, normally after 6pm and as late as 10pm. I'd call in my background checks as much as possible to insure a timely transfer. Even if I made sure to take a day or two of the week to get that done, the pick ups would be scheduled ASAP but also at my leisure.
I have had people question why I don't have one (FFL) and people that think I am one, it's to the point where I'm starting to think it would be worth. Not to be that guy who's trying to get rich, but more as a

You sound butthurt.
I have requested the paperwork read it all, know the "ins and outs", if I do follow through with an getting my FFL, it would be all about getting folks their firearms.

I'd have a relationship with my customers, the delivery people, and my distributors.
I'd honor the 3day rule because I would be dealing with repeat customers and close friends. I would keep my prices low as possible. I'd also try and talk people into top tier firearms instead of cheap stuff.

when dealing with the state I would ask customers to come at an hour when other shops are closed, normally after 6pm and as late as 10pm. I'd call in my background checks as much as possible to insure a timely transfer. Even if I made sure to take a day or two of the week to get that done, the pick ups would be scheduled ASAP but also at my leisure.
I have had people question why I don't have one (FFL) and people that think I am one, it's to the point where I'm starting to think it would be worth. Not to be that guy who's trying to get rich, but more as a community service.
Sounds like you need to get your FFL and start doing your community since people already think you are one. I'm 16 years in and could use the help.
 
I get it, have known plenty of FFL's on a semi-personal, I have heard all of the horror story and complaints, from horrible customers experiences, to ATF audits, to guys losing their FFL. I was mostly joking with the butthurt comment, but 16yrs is a good run.
 

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