New Reloader Stupid Questions

[mikemenzie]

'A blautur strákur flýgur hraðar á miðnætti.'

 

[mikemenzie]

@tac good to know about swiss. I do have a 96/11 i enjoy shooting.

@osprey ha! Getting bogged down in details is what Tiggers do best. Errr...well, you know what I mean. Haha. I do not have a mentor. - except ya'll, of course. But this is how i do. I wanted to build a rudimentary paddleboard - so i spent 6 months researching boat design and htdrodynamics. No such thing as too many details.

I just picked up a Hornady progressive from @Scouter343 (much appreciated!) And will be starting on that.

@Mikej understood. And i get exactly what you're saying. I do plan to get a single stage once i find one i can afford in my reloading budget i've set myself. But i wanted to get started with what will last me longest. And knowing myself, i'd always enjoy single stage working, but i'd move on to the progressive pretty quick anyway, so wanted to make sure i get that while i can afford it, now.

@Dyjital
Now a few posts above yours says bolt should bump back .002 and semi should bump back to .004. And you say no bump sizing for semi.
Would you mind clarifying why no bumping except for bolt?
As for hours of response reading - more the merrier. Only wrong with more info is...welll...nothing. i'll take all i can get, i'll do what i do, learn as i go, and always reference back to all the things i learn from you all.

@JRuby problem is, i don't need best gear to start - but i do need best for me, to start, and what's going to last me some 5 or 10 years. It'll likely be that long before i can afford to change over to any other equipment. I have a very firm budget i'm working with, and just gotta squeeze every last cent out of it, while planning for the next some odd years.

I thank all of you. I do listen, and try to learn, and hearing from those who *do* is always a most appreciated privilege. I will take the advice of trying a few different things in terms of sizing and all, and i'll keep my eye out for any of the things ya'll have mentioned. Again, much appreciated, and never worry about overwhelming this poor sod. I can take it

-Mike

 

[tac]

@tac good to know about swiss. I do have a 96/11 i enjoy shooting. Mike

You'll find that the best website for Swiss schtuff is swissrifles.com. Piérre here is the daddy of it all, and his son, Latigo, now runs most of the show, including the Swiss Products company in Kalispell MT. Grafs and Brownells are no longer distributors, and SP are sold direct to the customer, cutting out a whack of $$$. The new diopter sight system for the K11/G11 et al is a wonder to behold, if you are into that kind of shootment. Both Piérre and Latigo post on gunboards.com. The sites are both frequented by Swiss national shooters as well, to bring an authentic flave to it all...

 

[ron]

Good input about neck sizing. I have been reloading since 1978. Started with a
RCBS Rock Chucker. I have been cranking out ammo on my Dillon 550 for +25 years.
I full length size all rifle ammo since I have several rifles of the same caliber and most
are semi-auto. I will address the crimping question. I do not crimp any rifle loads
223, 308 and 30/06. No issues with bullets pushing deeper in case. Standard RCBS
Full Length dies. I reload and shoot thousands of 223 in ARs for competition and practice
each year no crimp. Crimping will reduce accuracy. Pistol ammo you must crimp.
Semi auto head spaces on the case mouth you need to taper crimp on a separate
stage from seating die. Revolver ammo Roll crimp and seat on the same die or stage.
Heavy crimp for heavy magnum loads. I reload for 38 spl, 357 mag, 9mm, 40 S&W,
45 ACP, and 44 Mag.

 

[ron]

You'll find that the best website for Swiss schtuff is swissrifles.com. Piérre here is the daddy of it all, and his son, Latigo, now runs most of the show, including the Swiss Products company in Kalispell MT. Grafs and Brownells are no longer distributors, and SP are sold direct to the customer, cutting out a whack of $$$. The new diopter sight system for the K11/G11 et al is a wonder to behold, if you are into that kind of shootment. Both Piérre and Latigo post on gunboards.com. The sites are both frequented by Swiss national shooters as well, to bring an authentic flave to it all...

View attachment 507120

What is that big green thing under the K-31? I know in Switzerland the shooters use rests.
Here in the US we are sling shooters. How about you @tac ?
I modified my K-31 with a 6 O'clock sling swivel.

 

[tac]

What is that big green thing under the K-31? I know in Switzerland the shooters use rests.
Here in the US we are sling shooters. How about you @tac ?
I modified my K-31 with a 6 O'clock sling swivel.

That 'K31' is a K11 - THIS is a K31 - with one of my collection of El Paso-made Weaver scopes and Warne mounts.



The big green thing is an American gun rest, as I'm sure you know.

 

[tac]

...and this is my latest Weaver find - a 3-9x40 from the gun store in Brookings...

 

[Member 5605]

Would you mind clarifying why no bumping except for bolt?

Reliability. Unless you intend to measure and chamber check every round, it's not worth the extra time and hassle. I learned a lesson when my brass decided to spring back for some AR ammo. I ended up pulling 250 rounds to redo. I had .005" of sizing variance between brass and chamber.

Now if you are doing small batch precision ammo and you check every one... sure then bump the shoulder on a full length resize.

I was burned once and that was enough.



And equipment wise.. I run all Lee. It's still going strong after many years and thousands of rounds.

 

[mikemenzie]

@Dyjital
Understood. Thanks, that clarifies a lot of my confusion about FL vs neck/bump right there.

@tac It sounds like you and I are going to need to have some discussions elsewhere about Swiss rifles, my friend. Awesome!

@ron perfect. similar to same info I've been finding a lot of other places, but your presentation of the info clears a lot up for me.

I decided to go ahead and put the Lee Factory Crimp dies for every caliber I'll be reloading on my list of things to get. I figured regardless of whether I decide to crimp high power rifle rounds, or crimp in a separate step for revolver rounds, no matter what I'll have the option - and the Lee FCD seems, from all the info I could find, to be the best, with less worry for a newb like myself to overcrimp and all that, as long as I set it up correctly.

I do plan, like i said, on getting a single stage if I can manage to fit it into the budget. But meanwhile, I planned to use only one stage in the Hornady progressive on occasions when I want to pay more attention to one action at a time, and I appreciate the posts suggesting I do one action at a time as a new reloader. (If any of ya'll have suggestions on the least expensive good single stage, or have one sitting under the back room rag pile you want to get rid of cheap...hahaha)

I think I'm leaning now toward full length resizing everything at first, while getting a feel for the system and process. Once more comfortable, I'll branch out and try some other methods for other things. As of yet, I stick mostly to one firearm per cartridge, so I don't need to worry much about chambering in various firearms, but It will likely be a concern in future. and It seems like - other than the possibility of brass life decreasing - full length resizing very time is the "safest bet" to be sure any round I reload ought to fit in anything I throw it in.

-Mike

 

[mikemenzie]

I realized belatedly I hadn't figured in a reloading bench into my budget. Stupid me, haha. I had figured on reloading in my workshop - and after some thought realized that's probably a bad idea. The humidity in my workshop averages 94% to 96% humidity, which I was figuring would be bad for corrosion of things, along with exposing powder to a lot of moisture.

Just ordered and picking up today what I decided would be best: a small rolling base toolbox from Home Depot. Gonna bring it home today and as soon as I can build a tabletop for it, for mounting the press.

 

[Legs]

@mikemenzie
You did not specify, nor did anyone ask, if you were reloading for a bottleneck cartridge to be used exclusively in one rifle. I reload my 25-06 for two rifles, yet keep my brass separate and specific to each rifle. Since chamber dimensions are rarely identical, once the brass has been fire formed to that chamber all that is needed is neck sizing with occasional trim. Same thing with two varmint bolt rifles in .223 that I reload for.
Another thing you may want to check on is your chamber's fee bore... bullet to lands of rifling. This can vary widely even by same manufacturer. Bullets with lots of free bore can be set further out of the case, within limits. Biggest being the magazine. Don't want cartridges to bind there. Best not to exceed specified OCL by much (Overall Cartridge Length).
A gauge for measuring chamber free bore can be easily made by sacrificing a fire formed, trimmed case and using a Dremel with a metal cutting disc cut a groove along the case neck, from top to just into shoulder. Clean up the cut a bit and you should have a fairly loose, but snug, bullet fit in the case neck. Place the bullet a bit out, chamber the cartridge (gauge), remove, and measure the cartridge length. The difference between that measurement and the specified OCL is the free bore. If the bullet should stick in the barrel lands try tightening up the neck of the gauge a bit with neck sizing. Generally, I set my bullets about 5 thousandths from the lands when I reload, although that will depend on each rifle being loaded for. One of my .223s likes a bit further out, and I have no idea why, at 15 thousandths. Got to shoot a bit to find out what works best.
Good luck and enjoy reloading!

 

[mikemenzie]

@Legs interesting, thanks! Hadn't heard of that yet, and was wondering how to gauge freebore.

I only have a couple firearms that shoot same ammo as another, but mostly those are "shoot one, save one" firearms, so i don't generally shoot both.

 

[bikemutt]

For rifle brass, in my case .223, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel and .308 Win, I prefer to body size and bump the shoulder 1-2 thou. I neck size with Lee collet dies.

If accuracy is important then it's most likely that making every loaded cartridge the same as previous one is an admirable goal. If one believes that a fire formed case is as good as it gets, and the loaded rounds chamber, perhaps the body sizing and bumping step could be eliminated.

As far as overworking the brass goes, if by not overworking it one has poor results on the target, it's a false savings.

 

[Shawn the Locksmith]

target loads out of rifles neck size only, bumping can bulge a case then throw off the case volume and pressure.
hunting loads, get full length resized, smoother functioning, small loss in accuracy.(very small)
watch the necks in both, trim to length, if bullets have a groove it's there for a purpose (crimp) light pressure as possible to round the edge and hold the bullet uniformly with the rest.
This expierence is with 38's 44's, 45lc, 454 ca 380, 9mm 45acp 45 win mag 7mmBR, 35rem, 243, 222,30-30,
30-06 , 7mag, 300win mag, and 375H&H
just my 4 bits worth. shawn

 

[mignuc]

Regarding sizing of brass - one general rule is to full-length size any cartridge that may be used in different guns. That way they are going to fit in whatever gun you are using. Neck-size only if the brass is going to be fired only in one gun. Neck-sizing-only will not require trimming as often. Powerful rifle cartridges will need to be full-length-sized from time to time since they stretch. One key, especially for bottleneck cartridges, is to check the length of every piece of brass after its sized, and then trim when necessary. Trim-length is found in the reloading manual. One reply mentioned case-neck annealing. Both full and neck-sizing hardens the neck case. That causes splits and requires you to throw that case away. Especially if you have more than one neck split in a batch, which means that you have to either buy new brass or anneal. I have several .264 Win. Mag. cases that, with annealing about every fifth reloading, I have shot more than 12 times with the same brass. Some of it was probably quite a bit more. This becomes especially essential if you have brass that cannot be easily replaced like that for obsolete cartridges or the brass is expensive. My .30-378 Weatherby brass costs about $74 for 20 rounds. So, the life of the brass is usually measured in how many times you can shoot that lot of brass before they start neck-cracking.

When I am trying a different bullet I want to first load a dummy round. I don't have a bullet comparator because I don't need one. I take the only bolt-action rifle or pistol I want to shoot that cartridge in, resize the brass in the way currently needed, then I partially seat the new bullet to a bit longer than I think it will need to be seated. Then I try it in the gun. The first time, it shouldn't allow the bolt to go all the way in and lock down. I then extract it, evaluate any land-engraving on it and turn the die in about a quarter of a turn and seat the bullet further. If the bolt handle heads toward closing all the way, I go to about 1/8 turn each time until the bolt handle closes, but with a bit of effort. Not a lot. I, personally, then back the seating die off 0.010" to 0.020" to start. Exact seating depth can be developed from there. I then keep the dummy on hand (with the bullet written on the case) so that if I ever need to adjust the seating die I can just put the dummy back in the press, turn the seating stem out far enough to make sure that it doesn't touch the bullet. I run the dummy round into the die and then screw the seating stem down until it just touches the bullet. After that, I put the dummy aside and run my first reloaded round in and then compare it to the dummy. Often the die will need a few more thousandths.

Back in the Schutzen days, using black powder and all-lead bullets, there were some target shooters who only used one single case for all the shots. After they fired they usually just loaded a new primer, the powder and then seated the bullet with neck-tension only.

For pistol brass one of the most necessary things that is needed is to also check case length. High pressure brass will grow in length over time. The only way to get a consistent crimp is to have consistent length. Low pressure brass may never need trimming. I have a thousand or two .45 ACP cases, of all different brands, military, civilian, etc. that have been fired dozens of times without trimming. I prime those by hand and when the primer seats too easily, that means that the primer pocket has finally stretched to a point where I toss that case.

I teach the NRA Reloading courses and one thing I tell my students is that, before you go to a progressive press, you must learn to reload first! One of the things I like about loading ammo is that there is an infinite number of problems to solve. If you don't know how to solve them when using a single-stage press, they will be more to MUCH more complicated to solve on a progressive.

The very, very most important thing to have is an experienced reloader for a mentor. They've probably already seen some of the problems that will come up for you.

As far as things like dies that go further down on the case body and small-base dies: Don't bother until is apparent that you need them.

In case you're still reading this, highly make one suggestion: The money you put into a digital scale will be some of the best money you've ever spent in your life! I currently have one, plus another for backup. You should, however, have a manual scale to occasionally compare with your digital scale as a quality check.

If you have any more questions, after reading this book, just reply to me. Good loading.

I full-length size all new brass. I have had new brass that was out of specifications and was not pleased about it.

For some cartridges, only loaded ammo is available. If that's what you need to start with, why not see how accurate that ammo is? I had one barrel chambered for .35 Remington that I used for metallic silhouette. I spent probably a couple of hundred dollars (probably $300 today) and was absolutely disgusted when I realized that the best load for that barrel was Remington 150 gr. factory ammo. Sheesh!

I only see one reason to use non-brass cases and that is if that's all that's available. There is one other reason and that's just to play around. That's why I reload some Berdan-primed brass for my 7.62 Nagant. Sometimes its just fun to play! I also have a reloading kit for .22 rimfire cartridges, but I haven't tried it yet. One word of caution here: If you are using steel cases, I have read in multiple places that what should be used are carbide sizing dies and the cases still need lubing. If I was trying it, I might load a few with my current dies, just to try it. But if I decided I needed to do more than a few, I would invest in a multiple-hundreds of dollars worth of a carbide die. I've never heard the results of anyone reloading aluminum cases, but it would be a hassle since pretty much all aluminum cases use Berdan primes and since our tensions with Russia started several years ago, Berdan primers are not sold in the U.S. since they all came from Russia.

If I can get a fourth die at a reasonable price I always use separate seating and crimping dies. It makes both stage more consistent. Your Lee factory crimp die should do you just fine.

 

[mikemenzie]

wow @mignuc
Thank you and thank you. That will all be filed away for future checking.
The annealing was another question I was going to be asking, so thank you for clearing that up. Makes perfect sense.
I understand what you mean about making a dummy round. That sounds like a great way to go. I'll probably have a couple reloading sessions that mostly consist of just *using the press*. But once I start reloading for real, I think I'll be making some of those dummy rounds. I can think of quite a few uses for doing that. Awesome idea.

If I had a mentor...well, I'd still be looking into things on here, because I have seen over time that a lot of ya'll have some really good info and experience with varied things. But I wouldn't be bugging ya'll quite as much, haha. But story of life, eh? If I waited to find a teacher before learning things, I'd never have learned half the things I know, haha. I make do best I can, try to observe safety so as to avoid mistakes that would cause harm. All other types of mistakes are just learning experiences.

I have been reading into various things for reloading 7.62 nagant (revolver). I look forward to trying some different things, but that will wait until I have more reloading basics under my belt.

I still understand and respect the suggestions that I start with a single stage press. But yeah...if I bought a single stage only, now, it could be years before I could afford a progressive. If I buy both now, I may not have what I need to buy other reloading essentials (like the scales you mention. I fully intend to have a desktop digital, portable digital, and a mechanical. Many hobbies I've been involved in require precision and I don't like to skimp on that.)
But perhaps my reasoning has been faulty and ya'll could correct me.
If I mount one die in one stage of my progressive press, and leave the other 4 stages empty - is this not functionally the same as using a single stage press? If that's a stupid question, see thread title, haha.

 

[DizzyJ]

Lots of great information here.

I'll just add for now,
1) be as consistent as possible with whatever you're loading.

2) people will argue day in and day out neck vs full length sizing. Both can get you extremely accurate ammunition.

3) get a couple or three or four good reloading manuals and read them. Then read them again. There's a ton of applicable info that can be gleaned from them.

4) get and become familiar with how to use measuring tools for your cartridges! This will save you hours of rework!

5) if you're not sure, STOP and ask! This is not a game where one can "guess" to see if he's correct! See #4 above also here!

 

[Mygrainman]

My first press was a partner press bu rcbs
I have since acquired better tools but I still use that press for priming brass cases. I think that little press would do most of my reloading if it was my only press. You dont need to have the best equipment to start.

Mine too... I have it mounted to a Harbor Freight grinder stand along with a small vice so I can move it anywhere around the Mygrain Silo. I have tried a couple other single stage presses, and I have a Lyman turret set up that is great, but I always seem to use that little partner more than anything else.
I did just get a Rock Chucker2 at the ARPC show last month.. I like it a lot!

 

[JRuby]

Mine too... I have it mounted to a Harbor Freight grinder stand along with a small vice so I can move it anywhere around the Mygrain Silo. I have tried a couple other single stage presses, and I have a Lyman turret set up that is great, but I always seem to use that little partner more than anything else.
I did just get a Rock Chucker2 at the ARPC show last month.. I like it a lot!

The rock chucker does one thing much better than that partner press and that is resizing military brass. I buy a lot of lake city once fired 308 brass and that stuff takes some serious work to get it back into dimensions. The rock chucker is also a lot better at forming brass like for Wildcats. I use two rock chuckers as my primary presses.

 

[mignuc]

Glad you found it helpful. You can still use the dummy round in a progressive press, just making sure that all of the other die stations have no dies in them.

There are currently only two ways to reload 7.62 Nagant: Buy new Boxer-primed brass or modify used Berdan-primed brass. To modify Berdan brass you should use a drill press. The (integrated) anvil of brass in the center of the case should be made flat with a center-cutting end mill. A normal drill bit will just go off to the side of the anvil since it's rounded. I don't know how much you know about machining, so I'll give you more detail than I would a machinist. The end of an endmill cutter is not flat across. They have about a 1 degree slope so that the center is further back into the bit than the edges. That means that there will still be minor peak in the middle of the anvil after you've used the end mill, of 1 degree on a side. So, after the end mill, use a center punch or prick punch to put a dimple in the center of the anvil. It doesn't have to be exactly in the center, but as close as you can make it. For the next step, I have heard of people using either brass rod or tiny screws to fill up the Berdan flash holes. I don't really know if that's necessary or not. I would try it first without. Next, use a small drill of appropriate size to drill a new flash hole in the center of what used to be the old anvil. Last, use a primer pocket reamer to make sure that your pocket is industry standard. Use small pistol primers for these.

If I decided that I did need to fill up the old Berdan holes, I would probably try threading them and using tiny screws to do so. I'd turn them in as far as possible, tighten them as much as possible, then do the work with the old anvil/new center hole. I would find the softest screws possible, although there isn't a whole lot of choice for something so small. A tap about 1mm in diameter should be about right, or maybe a 1-64 tap. These tools are not expensive.

You are right, in theory, that a progressive press with only one die inserted is, effectively, a single-stage press. However, progressive presses are designed to create more total pressure on the cases since it is intended to do four or five things at once, not just one. Reloading requires a sense of touch so that you can, for example, feel how much pressure you're putting on the press and case. While you can use a progressive as a single-stage, just be aware that when you crunch a case (like crumple the side), it will be a much better crunch!

It is, of course, your choice but I still always recommend learning on a single-stage. I do not know what your budget looks like (I refuse to even look at mine), but, for example, Lee makes a Challenger O-frame press that sells new for about $160 (with no accessories). If that's too expensive, you can pick one up cheaply at a gun show. If you're buying a used one, just make sure that there is very little wiggle between the shaft and the body of the press. There must be some to be able to move the ram at all, but not much more than that. You can often pick up the lighter ones for $75 or less.

What cartridges you're loading determines how strong a press you need. If you are loading handgun or low-pressure brass, the Lee press or any used O-frame press will work fine. I'm not fond of C-frame presses. If, however, you are loading higher pressure rifle brass like the .264 Winchester Magnum, you will need an RCBS Rockchucker-size press. I have worn out a Lee press by means of developing too much play between ram and press body and then bought another one just like it. However, I also have an RCBS press that's even stronger than a Rockchucker.

Having said that, it's your choice. I've given you the reason why I said what I did, now the choice is up to you!

If you need any more help, especially with weird and unusual stuff, you can contact me at [email protected]. I love helping people figure things out.

R. Theron Cammer