New Reloader Stupid Questions

[mikemenzie]

@mignuc Awesome. Another few questions of mine answered, that I hadn't asked yet. You should do this professionally, haha.
The Berdan primer thing was one I was curious about. I'd only done a cursory search of whether or not it was possible and found the usual 100 "no it's not" to the 1 or 2 "yes it is". And I've come across the reforming .223 and a couple other cases to make 7.62x38r, which sounds time consuming, not fun at all, and like a load of fun, hahaha.

Appreciate the suggestions on particular single stages. That aligns pretty well with what I'd found for prices. I think I'm just going to have to wait until I know I have all the other basics I need, see if I have any budget left, or wait to get a screaming deal on a used, useable single stage, unfortunately, so I likely won't be starting with one. I appreciate the challenge more now with using a progressive as a single stage. The mechanical advantage differences between single stage and progressive should've been more clear to me before, but i wasn't thinking, so thanks to a couple of ya'll for clearing that up. Unfortunately, like I said, I'm not going to have much choice, haha. Needs must, and all that.

-Mike

 

[mikemenzie]

Mine too... I have it mounted to a Harbor Freight grinder stand along with a small vice so I can move it anywhere around the Mygrain Silo. I have tried a couple other single stage presses, and I have a Lyman turret set up that is great, but I always seem to use that little partner more than anything else.
I did just get a Rock Chucker2 at the ARPC show last month.. I like it a lot!

After some deliberation, my setup is going to be in my living room. It's the most out of the way spot I can make, since the shop's humidity levels are always topping just near 100%. I got a Husky toolbox lower. Was going to build a tabletop onto it, but it's a little tall, so going to build a hang off the side shelf for the press, then load the reloading gear into it to keep it organized.

 

[Mygrainman]

The rock chucker does one thing much better than that partner press and that is resizing military brass.

That is exactly what I got it for...
I had to pull about 500 rounds of 55g's that I loaded and neglected to check with a chamber guage. I used a regular FL die, same one I've used for thousands before without issue, but this batch of brass must have been fireformed to an especially loose chamber.
All were LC military range brass. I have to re-size them with a SB die to get them back into shape.
The partner is fine for most tasks, but it's made from aluminum and there is a lot of play in the lever... my Lyman turret press is built better, and it speeds things up a bit, but it's really is no better for leverage.
You really can't do better than a Rock Chucker.... pulls nice and smooth. Over built.

 

[Otter]

I was an avid neck sizer only, trying to reload for accuracy. That all changed when I started to get some brass stuck in my chambers. Was so bad once the rifle had to take a trip to the gunsmith, and in trying to get the brass out damage the lands. Rifle had to be re-chambered to eliminate that part of the barrel.

Switched over to FL sizing only - never have had another stuck case and accuracy is as good or better. FL sizing if done right means every case is identical. You would think neck sizing would be more consistent, but brass spring back isn't always the same so you end up with variation.

 

[mignuc]

@mignuc Awesome. Another few questions of mine answered, that I hadn't asked yet. You should do this professionally, haha.
The Berdan primer thing was one I was curious about. I'd only done a cursory search of whether or not it was possible and found the usual 100 "no it's not" to the 1 or 2 "yes it is". And I've come across the reforming .223 and a couple other cases to make 7.62x38r, which sounds time consuming, not fun at all, and like a load of fun, hahaha.

Appreciate the suggestions on particular single stages. That aligns pretty well with what I'd found for prices. I think I'm just going to have to wait until I know I have all the other basics I need, see if I have any budget left, or wait to get a screaming deal on a used, useable single stage, unfortunately, so I likely won't be starting with one. I appreciate the challenge more now with using a progressive as a single stage. The mechanical advantage differences between single stage and progressive should've been more clear to me before, but i wasn't thinking, so thanks to a couple of ya'll for clearing that up. Unfortunately, like I said, I'm not going to have much choice, haha. Needs must, and all that.

-Mike

Actually, I did have an FFL that allowed ammunition manufacturing, until I moved last year. I am also a machinist and cartridge collector. I load cartridges from the .14 Flea (.32 ACP case necked down to .142" caliber) to a .50-70-750. That's using a .50-70 case (1-3/4" long) and loading 750 gr. Hornady A-Max bullets in them. The .14 Flea is a 6" Thompson Contender barrel and the .50-70-750 is a 13" Thompson Encore barrel. I had paid a barrel manufacturer for a .10 caliber barrel. I have about 1,000 primed rimfire cases, one of which is longer than a .22 Long Rifle case. They're used by Winchester to make .22 LR shotshell ammo. I was going to create a ".102 Alternative Ammo" round from it for a Contender barrel. Having fully paid for it, the guy went out of business.

Even I, who likes to do really weird things, wouldn't bother doing 7.62 X 38R with anything other than new brass or modified Berdan brass. It's only in the last few years that brand-new Boxer-primed brass was available. If I wanted sufficient quantity to really shoot with, that's what I would use. If I just wanted something in reloading to play with, I'd do the conversion to Boxer. .223 to 7.62 X 38R? Not on your life! For one thing, you'd have to have a lathe to convert from the rimless .223 to a rimmed case like the 7.62.

I hadn't thought about the difference in mechanical advantage before your question, either, so don't feel bad.

 

[mikemenzie]

absolutely understand and agree, I had planned to only use boxer primed brass for the 7.62x38r, but the berdan primer project sounds like something that might be fun to explore in future. the .223 to 7.62 nagant sounded more like on of those "wow, this is a terrible idea...i think i might have to try it once so i can tell myself how stupid i am." we all get those moments, right? or...just me? hahaha

 

[Mygrainman]

After some deliberation, my setup is going to be in my living room. It's the most out of the way spot I can make, since the shop's humidity levels are always topping just near 100%. I got a Husky toolbox lower. Was going to build a tabletop onto it, but it's a little tall, so going to build a hang off the side shelf for the press, then load the reloading gear into it to keep it organized.

I'd consider putting your press on a grinder stand... It will give you a solid, yet portable platform to work with, and leave you more space on your bench.

 

[mikemenzie]

I had looked into that, but this would have left me less space for organizing the reloading bits and pieces, and/or necessitated a grinding stand *and* an organizing station of some kind, which I don't have space for in the living room. I did splurge a bit on the toolbox I got (pictures will come later) to make sure I got a solid and sturdy one, and the table/shelf I'll be building on it WILL be sturdy and solid, or I have no business building things, haha. And I plan to make it quick release, so I can store the press itself in the toolbox when not in use.

 

[JRuby]

You want a reloading challenge try reloading / making pin fire cartridges. My next door neighbor use to and I was amazed at how well they worked.

 

[mikemenzie]

Haha yes, i've actually looked at those a bit. Would be an interesting project!

 

[mignuc]

RCBS makes an adapter plate that fits their press and I don't-know-what-all else. It's designed to be able to remove the press in seconds and can be used for other things. Of course, I'm sure they'd all have to be RCBS brand.

If you put your press on the end of your toolbox like you were talking about, please be aware that most of them have wheels underneath such that if you put a heavy press on the end and then push down hard with the press handle, it could go end over end on top of you. Of course, if you did tip it over on top of yourself it's likely to make enough noise that someone is likely to hear the tools spilling all over the floor and come and dig you out of hundreds of pounds of tooling! (bad humor - sorry - but not very sorry)

What I did at my last place, and intend to do in my current place if I live long enough to set up another loading room, is I made one wall all shelves one foot deep. I installed 4 X 4's to hold the bench top and the ones from front to back were 2' 6" long. I bolted the 4 X 4's to the vertical wall studs and then put up all of the shelves. That loading bench was about 25' long, so I had about one cubbyhole for every caliber. I found, however, that I needed at least two cubbyholes just for .30 caliber. For a bench top I used floor joists 2" X 14". Since I couldn't carry a 25' long floor joist in my truck I bought two pieces 14' long and used my circular saw to half-lap the ends and trim them to length. That makes a VERY sturdy bench that nothing could hurt! I could also mounted most of my presses, case trimmers, etc. on it an left them there. Two words of caution, from personal errors - the front-to-back 4 X 4's and the sideways ones along the front of the bench need to have at least an inch overhang. When I bought my Dillon 650 I had to chisel an inch or more back into the front 4 X 4 to allow room for the plate that the handle screws into, to be able to swing freely. The second observation is that the 2" side of the floor joists, for some unknown reason, is colored orange. I had streaks of orange coloring on my pants for months! If I do the same thing here, I'll just sand down the edge far enough to get rid of the color.

So, here's another book. "Everything you never needed to know, but I'll tell you anyway."

 

[bsa1917hunter]

I would say it does matter. In my opinion being relatively new to the hab..HOBBY myself, a single stage is the best way to learn. I guess unless your already a tool and die maker, mathematician, transmission mechanic, watch/clock repairman etc. There's "Feel" to a lot of the process that's not as apparent on a progressive setup. And, all the old timey custom ammo makers say you'll always need a single stage. I'll probably never have a progressive because I like the process of the slower pace of rolling my own with single stage.

I'm with you on this.

 

[mikemenzie]

RCBS makes an adapter plate that fits their press and I don't-know-what-all else. It's designed to be able to remove the press in seconds and can be used for other things. Of course, I'm sure they'd all have to be RCBS brand.

If you put your press on the end of your toolbox like you were talking about, please be aware that most of them have wheels underneath such that if you put a heavy press on the end and then push down hard with the press handle, it could go end over end on top of you. Of course, if you did tip it over on top of yourself it's likely to make enough noise that someone is likely to hear the tools spilling all over the floor and come and dig you out of hundreds of pounds of tooling! (bad humor - sorry - but not very sorry)

What I did at my last place, and intend to do in my current place if I live long enough to set up another loading room, is I made one wall all shelves one foot deep. I installed 4 X 4's to hold the bench top and the ones from front to back were 2' 6" long. I bolted the 4 X 4's to the vertical wall studs and then put up all of the shelves. That loading bench was about 25' long, so I had about one cubbyhole for every caliber. I found, however, that I needed at least two cubbyholes just for .30 caliber. For a bench top I used floor joists 2" X 14". Since I couldn't carry a 25' long floor joist in my truck I bought two pieces 14' long and used my circular saw to half-lap the ends and trim them to length. That makes a VERY sturdy bench that nothing could hurt! I could also mounted most of my presses, case trimmers, etc. on it an left them there. Two words of caution, from personal errors - the front-to-back 4 X 4's and the sideways ones along the front of the bench need to have at least an inch overhang. When I bought my Dillon 650 I had to chisel an inch or more back into the front 4 X 4 to allow room for the plate that the handle screws into, to be able to swing freely. The second observation is that the 2" side of the floor joists, for some unknown reason, is colored orange. I had streaks of orange coloring on my pants for months! If I do the same thing here, I'll just sand down the edge far enough to get rid of the color.

So, here's another book. "Everything you never needed to know, but I'll tell you anyway."

Your story had me cracking up. I've been there, building different project specific benches and setups in my shop, haha. But yes, I did a lot of checking before deciding on the toolbox, and once gotten, I tested - empty - the tip factor, and definitely no problem there. Would take more than I weigh placed over the side to tip it. When I fill it, it will be bottom heavy, further protecting against tipping. I'm looking forward to it being the best set up and organized project area I have, haha.

And for all the single stage recommenders - I do get it. I just can't afford it! But I'll start perusing the listings here and if I find a decent single stage for less than a hundred I know I can afford, I'll think about getting it, k?

 

[jordanka16]

Your story had me cracking up. I've been there, building different project specific benches and setups in my shop, haha. But yes, I did a lot of checking before deciding on the toolbox, and once gotten, I tested - empty - the tip factor, and definitely no problem there. Would take more than I weigh placed over the side to tip it. When I fill it, it will be bottom heavy, further protecting against tipping. I'm looking forward to it being the best set up and organized project area I have, haha.

And for all the single stage recommenders - I do get it. I just can't afford it! But I'll start perusing the listings here and if I find a decent single stage for less than a hundred I know I can afford, I'll think about getting it, k?

Lee makes a few that are pretty inexpensive, but honestly there is nothing wrong with learning on a progressive, there is just more you will have to watch and be aware of. Most progressives can be use roughly like a single stage anyway, just running one case through at a time, which is how I would recommend getting things going.

 

[mikemenzie]

New question!
Should I post it as a new thread? Figured I ought not muddy up the forum if I have a perfectly good thread here...

Case gauges...

from what I can figure out:
Sheridan slotted case gauges are good for checking length from shoulder to rim/base, and overall shape and size of the brass inside what is nominally minimum saami dimensioned chamber sizing - but it doesn't show case trim length.

Other standard case gauges are similar, but have looser machined insides and aren't slotted, so may show trim length and length from shoulder to rim/base, but that's it.

hornady headspace gauge set with "comparator" body allow checking...not really sure. kinda confused on this one.

And of course, most recommendations say to trim to .01" less than saami maximum, or some other number, which would require a way to measure the length of at least one cartridge, to be able to set the case trimmer.

My plan: to buy a Wilson Stainless Ultimate Trimmer (with the black micrometer, not the one with stainless micrometer) from Brownell's - cheapest I could find.
Buy Sheridan case gauges because they seem good?
And...no idea what to get for best measuring case length (best being relative...I don't want to spend $100 on something that'll measure one single caliber.)

-Mike

 

[mignuc]

Any case gauge will probably be just fine. If you're planning to try several different bullets for Benchrest shooting, a comparator would be worth your while. If you're planning to try just a few different bullets the method I use should be adequate for your needs.

When you read the reloading manual, most of them give a trim-to length. It's usually given as 0.005" shorter than maximum. If you are not using a crimp, it really doesn't make much difference since the entire length of the neck is what provides the bullet pulling force. If you are roll crimping, the 0.005" is pretty much fine unless you come across a warning in the manual that tells you to use a firm crimp. If you're shooting Benchrest you will be loading one round at a time into the action. so you'll probably be fine with no crimp. If you're using a magazine with a semi-automatic, you'll probably need to crimp it. However, ammo for a semiautomatic pistol as well as bottleneck cases require a taper crimp, not a roll-crimp.

A Wilson trimmer should certainly be fine, however, if you want to save yourself $25, a Forster trimmer works fine. I have three of them.

For reloading purposes, RCBS makes a plastic caliper which will suite any budget. You can also get cheap ones through Harbor Freight. However, I suggest that you invest in good equipment that will last you for life and will most likely be more accurate. I suggest Mitutoyo or Starrett brands. You can get them through Amazon. For these brands, expect to spend $100 - $150. That will get you one with a 6" measuring capacity. One thing that very strongly suggest - get one with a digital readout. A digital one will allow you to use metric or English units with the push of a button. I use that often and they're no more expensive that a dial indicator caliper.

In general, there's a lot of things out there that are useful, but with all respect, it seems to me that you're kinda getting caught up in the reloading equipment game. I have a ridiculous amount of reloading stuff and machinist stuff and believe me, someone at your stage of the game doesn't need the vast majority of it. For example, case gauges - those are one thing that I only acquired a few years ago (I'm 64 years old. And I do mean OLD.) Comparators fall into that category, too. I've loaded all my life and have never really seen the need for one. One can spend themselves to a second mortgage buying equipment that you don't really need at the start. Start by just learning to reload. Those kind of things can come later when you decide that you're at the point where you a specific item. KISS.

This message is about Book #4 by now, isn't it?

R. Theron Cammer

 

[mikemenzie]

However, I suggest that you invest in good equipment that will last you for life and will most likely be more accurate.

This has been my aim for everything I can afford in this endeavor. That was one reason I decided on the Wilson trimmer. Not because the Forster or others won't work, but it's manual - less stuff to break or wear out than motor operated, and the shell holder system for it seemed more long lasting and all than the others I saw, and I wanted to get the thing I'll keep and use for the next 50 years.

Regarding calipers, I think I have one of the standard reloading branded ones, probably a harbor freight one floating around my shop, and I plan to get one of the nicer ones like you recommend if it fits my budget once I get to that. I'm less concerned about that specifically because reloading stuff - once my budget is used up, I'm done. But calipers are an everything shop tool, so I'd be buying a nice set at some point anyway. Thanks for the recommendation in brands, I will look those up.

I think someone could make a heck of a lot of money if they compiled the info from these forums and published, hahahah.

-Mike

 

[tac]

1. Get ahold of the Sinclair catalog[ue].

2. Buy their nifty meplat trimmer/regulariser.

 

[mikemenzie]

1. Get ahold of the Sinclair catalog[ue].

2. Buy their nifty meplat trimmer/regulariser.

Yeah...I think that was filed away under "more than I ought to get into at this time, until I learn what the heck a meplat is"
Hahaha

 

[mignuc]

Oh! If the Wilson one you like is a powered one, by all means, go ahead!!! You will be very happy with pretty much any power trimmer.

You won't need a meplat trimmer. The meplat is the tip of the bullet. The trimmer trims the nose of a bullet to whatever dimension. Once one gets it set up, it trims every bullet the same. Only used by more advanced Benchrest shooters. I suggest, however, that you simply buy bullets with plastic tips. I usually start with Nosler. I went to the '92 International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association's annual international competition. One time as I was walking down the shooting line (100 shooting positions, all of them full) I noticed that the ammo in about half of the shooters' boxes were Nosler Ballistic Tips. At that time no other company could make them. All of the other bullet brands combined were the other half. But, there are other brands of them out there now. Although I haven't used them yet, Hornady has recently made relevant scientific discoveries about all brands of tips and made changes to theirs.

People have gotten all of this information together and put it all in one place. It's called a "reloading manual".

I've been enjoying these conversations with you.