NBC-TV LIES ABOUT REMINGTON

[PlayboyPenguin]

Hardly. But if a tragedy is involved, most often a lawsuit will follow. Have there been 50 lawsuits against Remington over this?
Not that I have heard of,... You?

So, let me get this straight,... First you said this:
Which implies that you overheard part of a conversation,... (You would have sworn?)
And now you say this:

So which is it?

I've had a (borrowed) M700 go off on me too. But after what had happened when I fell down with it I wasn't surprised. Plus it was the old design trigger assy, which Remington had offered to replace. Because the owner hadn't met his obligation, I couldn't open the bolt and empty the chamber before disengaging the safety.
Neither contribution to the problem was Remington's fault. They were obliged to remedy their initial error and would have done so,... If the gun owner hadn't been NEGLIGENT!
I do however get the credit for ensuring the gun was pointed in a safe direction before messing with the safety or the bolt. And I no longer take a borrowed gun on a hunt.
Hence, no lawsuit, and nothing for an anti-gun network to chase me down the street over, in their efforts to sensationally slam the builder of the world's most popular centerfire sporting rifle.

The guy stated the issues with the gun and the story about his father-n-law to the clerk. He and I merely quipped about how that must not have been fun when it went bang unexpectedly. I did not feel the need at the time to discuss it any further.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

So, let me understand, you have had an AD and it was not a fault of Remington's because:

1. You fell down with the firearm.
2. Remington had offered to replace the trigger mechanism, but the owner hadn't had it done.
3. You had to take the safety off to empty the chamber.

You know, where I come from, any firearm that discharges at any time other than when I pull the trigger with the safety(s) off is by definition a defective firearm. No amount of rationalization changes that.

Some people have been indoctrinated by the current political climate to feel it is "all or nothing" when you believe something. They just cannot accept that a bad gun can be made since they are pro-gun. Thinking people are able to take things case by case and do not need to rationalize anything that might be outside of our desired reality.

 

[Lars]

I put a hole in the floor of my dad's truck in '89 taking the safety off. The rifle had a trigger job. I usually unload outside and pointing in a safe direction, but it was raining pretty hard. I blame it on the trigger job, it scared the crap out of me though.

 

[Wheeler44]

Over on THR in the rifle country section there is a discussion going on about a Remington with the "new" trigger. The owner said that it was 2 months old and was bone stock. It fired when the safety was switched off. Remington gave the owner full dollar refund and kept the rifle...

It seems possible that "spin" goes both ways.

 

[andreys21]

Why does it surprise you that some LIBERAL MEDIA who are protected by the first amendment make up stories and OMIT other important information such as firearm safety rules and never make the victum look like the bad guy?

 

[74sporty]

i'd have to look at the mechanical break point of the rifle in question. but rule of thumb, anything mechanical (or electrical) may malfunction through extended use and wear (especially with poorly modified trigger jobs), design flaws, factory defects (ones that passes quality control when it shouldn't like a bunch of 1911's from brazil) which is why you should NEVER have a muzzle pointed at anything your not willing to KILL. never owned a 700 but shot a few. solid guns.

 

[74sporty]

Over on THR in the rifle country section there is a discussion going on about a Remington with the "new" trigger. The owner said that it was 2 months old and was bone stock. It fired when the safety was switched off. Remington gave the owner full dollar refund and kept the rifle...

It seems possible that "spin" goes both ways.

ok, that does seem feasible. bad trigger jobs from the factory isn't impossible.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

OK, so how many 700 series rifles have been sold over the years, and how many actual cases have been reported on UNMODIFIED firearms? I'd be willing to be that the percentage of failure is extremely low, and that this is a case of journalistic license to create more of a story than there really is.

 

[Shooter98]

It's not a made up story. I can make my 15 year old 700 do it pretty much every time. First time it happened it was when i was training the wife on the rifle for the first time. It scared the crap out of us and she never touched the rifle again. We argued because I told her she must of touched the trigger and she denied it. I got on the rifle and was able to make it do it again the next chambered round.

I still shoot the rifle, i just made it a habit to not drop the bolt until I'm ready to shoot now.

 

[74sporty]

It's not a made up story. I can make my 15 year old 700 do it pretty much every time. First time it happened it was when i was training the wife on the rifle for the first time. It scared the crap out of us and she never touched the rifle again. We argued because I told her she must of touched the trigger and she denied it. I got on the rifle and was able to make it do it again the next chambered round.

I still shoot the rifle, i just made it a habit to not drop the bolt until I'm ready to shoot now.

while i totally believe this, i still dont feel its a bad rifle, just a flawed trigger system. its not for shooters with bad safety habits for sure. im still fairly new to guns and still have a paranoid relationship with them. when handle a fire arm, i do it in such a way that makes it obvious to others that i am deliberately making an effort to point it away from them (muzzle is up or down)
maybe they just need to replace the design for the trigger group. something that is tried and true, safe and reliable

 

[Mason3379]

The only way these rifles will fire on their own is due to manipulation of factory settings or an absolute filthy rifle and nothing more. Even after seeing Remington check the "alleged" rifles and not able to duplicate people still spread their bubblegum bull $&*t! Try not messing with the trigger or keep your hands, toes, and other objects out of the trigger area.
I for one have two of these rifles which have both been adjusted by Remington Certified smiths and I have NEVER had an issue.
I think nbc is up to some smearing like most of the liberal media tends to do. If the libs don't like it then nobody should, typical liberal thoughts and attitude!

 

[Shooter98]

The only way these rifles will fire on their own is due to manipulation of factory settings or an absolute filthy rifle and nothing more. Even after seeing Remington check the "alleged" rifles and not able to duplicate people still spread their bubblegum bull $&*t! Try not messing with the trigger or keep your hands, toes, and other objects out of the trigger area.
I for one have two of these rifles which have both been adjusted by Remington Certified smiths and I have NEVER had an issue.
I think nbc is up to some smearing like most of the liberal media tends to do. If the libs don't like it then nobody should, typical liberal thoughts and attitude!

Yea, you're right.

 

[OcelotZ3]

I for one have two of these rifles which have both been adjusted by Remington Certified smiths and I have NEVER had an issue.

So, owning 2 that work of millions sold makes it a non-problem? Dude, you REALLY need to get some education on manufacturing tolerances & design in general.

 

[Mason3379]

Ok, funny how they cant PROVE any of them fired even after testing.
Your right, you must be the designer of the rifle!!??

So, owning 2 that work of millions sold makes it a non-problem? Dude, you REALLY need to get some education on manufacturing tolerances & design in general.

 

[Shooter98]

Ok, funny how they cant PROVE any of them fired even after testing.
Your right, you must be the designer of the rifle!!??

Are you willing to make a wager that I can prove to you that this is a fault? I tell you what, You meet me at the range, and I'll set up my rifle and show you the fault. At that point I will allow you to take the rifle to any gunsmith you wish and see that it's bone stock. No trigger filing, no work of any sort done at all. Here's the kicker, once that's done you need to come back on here and announce that you were wrong. Deal?

 

[Mason3379]

So you are guaranteeing a fault? Why have you not taken it to Remington then???? Funny thing is if there WAS an issue any SMART person (as you claim to be) would have had the issue resolved(but I am in need of schooling according to you). I guess your claim is that you have touched nothing on the rifle, so you must have had a friend do it or previous owner?? Maybe you can send your rifle to Remington and prove them wrong?
Would rather not spend a day at the range with someone I don't know, especially when your rifle might "accidentally discharge" and shoot me in the back!! I just don't know how it happened?? I put my finger on the trigger and it went off!!

Are you willing to make a wager that I can prove to you that this is a fault? I tell you what, You meet me at the range, and I'll set up my rifle and show you the fault. At that point I will allow you to take the rifle to any gunsmith you wish and see that it's bone stock. No trigger filing, no work of any sort done at all. Here's the kicker, once that's done you need to come back on here and announce that you were wrong. Deal?

 

[Mason3379]

You and shooter98 need to get together and start a firearms manufacturing company. You guys seem to be the AUTHORITY with all your brains on "manufacturing tolerances & design in general".
By the way, keep your finger off the trigger!
Thats why people like you can't own Glocks!

So, owning 2 that work of millions sold makes it a non-problem? Dude, you REALLY need to get some education on manufacturing tolerances & design in general.

 

[OcelotZ3]

What a maroon... I never claimed to be the designer, but that doesn't keep you from making stuff up.

Did you read the comment earlier in the thread where the guy owns one that goes off by itself? So you are accusing him of modifying the trigger? Shooter98, were you aware that you are being accused of modifying the trigger dangerously or very poor maintenance of your rifle. How do you feel about that?

Remember just a few years ago, where the cigarette companies "proved" that smoking doesn't cause cancer? Remember all the studies? Apparently those are also "true", because the company said so...

Remington's own internal memos from back in the 40's show that that there were concerns with just this issue. Even the designer (not me!) noted the possibility of a problem at the time and suggested a change in the design which Remington dismissed a too expensive. Testing on the line also revealed this issue.

For those earlier in the thread who were making up percentages out of thin air (and not calculating them correctly even using their own made-up numbers), an internal Remington memo shows that 133 rifles were returned to Remington between July 79 - Jan 80 due to this issue. That represents 0.16% of the production numbers shown in the memo at the time. In addition, not everyone would be returning the rifle (some can't be bothered, or don't care, etc.), so the percentage of rifles having issues is likely higher than that.

Some quotes from articles are below. Note that in an internal memo from their attorney, he states that they tested some rifles and verified the problem and he doesn't mention that they were "modified" or poorly maintained in any way, which is something that an attorney would usually be sure to point out. And he is balancing the income (cost to correct) vs. liability.

A 1968 Consumer Reports analysis of varmint rifles took a totally unmodified 700 and tested it out (along with a bunch of other rifles), and found that it would fire when removing the safety, and this persisted until it "wore in".

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But as early as December 3, 1946, with the gun still in the testing stage, lead engineer Merle "Mike" Walker—who would later receive a patent for the 700 series' firing mechanism—wrote a memo warning of a "theoretical unsafe condition" involving the gun's safety; the mechanism that is supposed to keep the gun from firing accidentally.

Four months later, in an April 9, 1947 memo entitled "M/721 Pilot Line Inspection," Test Engineer Wayne Leek wrote, "This situation can be very dangerous from a safety and functional point of view."

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But other documents show the company has been able to duplicate the condition. On March 18, 1975, Research Manager John Linde wrote to a Houston gunsmith that Remington "could duplicate" fire control problems on a Remington 700 that had been returned to the factory. And in a March 5, 1980 memo, a Remington employee named E. Hooton, Jr. notes that of 133 rifles returned to the factory for inadvertent firing in the second half of 1979, 44 of the complaints—one-third of the total—were "verified."

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While executives acknowledged in a 1948 memo that Walker's change "is the best design," they concluded, "its disadvantages lay in the high expenditure required to make the conversion."

The same memo tallied the additional cost. It came to 5 ½ cents per gun.

On August 31, 1948, Remington patent attorney A. J. Greene laid out the choice in a memo entitled "Model 721 Safety."

"Our usual potential liability for the safety of our product is augmented somewhat by our knowledge that some Model 721 safeties have misfunctioned (sic)," Greene wrote. "However, our liability does not seem out of proportion to the advantage of retaining the present...construction, pending receipt of further complaints from the field."

According to Rich Barber, the decision was pivotal. "They identified a dangerous condition and they still went ahead with production." Barber said.

 

[Shooter98]

So you are guaranteeing a fault? Why have you not taken it to Remington then???? Funny thing is if there WAS an issue any SMART person (as you claim to be) would have had the issue resolved(but I am in need of schooling according to you). I guess your claim is that you have touched nothing on the rifle, so you must have had a friend do it or previous owner?? Maybe you can send your rifle to Remington and prove them wrong?
Would rather not spend a day at the range with someone I don't know, especially when your rifle might "accidentally discharge" and shoot me in the back!! I just don't know how it happened?? I put my finger on the trigger and it went off!!

Somehow I knew what your response was going to be.

 

[Shooter98]

Did you read the comment earlier in the thread where the guy owns one that goes off by itself? So you are accusing him of modifying the trigger? Shooter98, were you aware that you are being accused of modifying the trigger dangerously or very poor maintenance of your rifle. How do you feel about that?

Yea, I know that, but I'm not concerned at all about it. Ignorance is bliss and I've learned that people who really don't know seem to argue the most intently.