Morning Commute a la Oregon State Police

[U201491]

Obligated to do everything possible to avoid confrontation? The Oregon Supreme Court ruled that no citizen has a duty to retreat in any location they legally occupy at that time.

I think he meant to not aggravate situations unnecessarily. Not flipping someone off doesn't really qualify as not retreating LOL.

 

[Pittsmaster]

OP has a CHL , OP was not carrying at the time.

Regardless, I'm not sure one is obligated to act differently in terms of civil liberties while carrying. Although at times it may be a good idea.

 

[solv3nt]

161.215 Limitations on use of physical force in defense of a person. Notwithstanding ORS 161.209, a person is not justified in using physical force upon another person if:

(1) With intent to cause physical injury or death to another person, the person provokes the use of unlawful physical force by that person; or

(2) The person is the initial aggressor, except that the use of physical force upon another person under such circumstances is justifiable if the person withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to the other person the intent to do so, but the latter nevertheless continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful physical force; or

(3) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law. [1971 c.743 §24]
<broken link removed>

Yes, flip the bird all that you want, but if you end up using deadly force, it might not be deemed "justified" if the jury sees your action of flipping the bird as being "the aggressor".

P.S.
If you're not allowed to use physical force being the aggressor, you're definitely not allowed to use deadly force in the same situation. You might be able to say that you tried to retreat, but is it worth the headache and legal fees?

 

[Pittsmaster]

Wow, this escalated quickly! haha

 

[The B]

In other parts of the country, the police will kick your bubblegum for flipping them off. You'd get your bubblegum handed to you, carted off the JAIL for disorderly conduct or some other unconstitutionally-vague charge, released after a few hours, and any complaints filed would be summarily round-filed.

We're pretty spoiled, here in the PNW. We get all indignant at police over totally innocuous stuff like this, instead of being grateful we didn't get shot.

I'm not offering an opinion on any of this (I'm generally very liberarian on the subject of governmental authority over private citizens)... merely musing over the cultural differences we have even in our own country.

 

[FortunateSon]

Obligated to do everything possible to avoid confrontation? The Oregon Supreme Court ruled that no citizen has a duty to retreat in any location they legally occupy at that time.

Retreat? Where did you get that? He wasn't being attacked.

My point is that simply ignoring the other driver would have been the better option.
Not only did he flip the bird, but he also tried to get the car to pull over. Both actions could easily be construed as aggressive behavior.

And obligated? YES
We should hold ourselves to higher standards when it comes to our personal conduct.

 

[solv3nt]

We should hold ourselves to higher standards when it comes to our personal conduct.

I absolutely love that your avatar is of Jack Nicholson.

 

[The B]

I wonder why we have to be such prideful bubblegums all the time. The Christlike behavior would be to turn the other cheek... always. If a man forces you to walk a mile, go with him two. If a man takes your jacket, offer him your shirt also. etc. Why's our culture so afraid to just let things go? Ain't nobody gonna have anything on me! Hell no! Ain't nobody gettin' the better o' me! Oh bubblegum no! What is this compulsion to refuse to back down from any perceived confrontation? What collective complex does the American male have?

So what if somebody insults you, or even wounds you in some minor way? How's your life going to be any better if you retaliate? You ain't gonna teach anyone a "lesson," believe me. They will learn nothing, whether you kick their bubblegum or get your handed to you. Stupid is as stupid does, and jackass is as jackass does.

I'm just as guilty of it. I could give all kinds of examples, but I don't need to - most of us are the same, I'm sure. Being subject to this American complex, and even being aware of it, I still can't figure it out.

 

[Pittsmaster]

Its less about me and more about holding public servants accountable. It's not like a regular job where one is in an office and one's superiors are around 24/7 to hold one accountable. In the case of LEO and the like, its the general public and those they interact with that give them feedback on their performance. Should I have flipped the bird? No. Irrespective of the bird, should she have used her lights to show that she was police? No.

 

[The B]

Its less about me and more about holding public servants accountable. It's not like a regular job where one is in an office and one's superiors are around 24/7 to hold one accountable. In the case of LEO and the like, its the general public and those they interact with that give them feedback on their performance. Should I have flipped the bird? No. Irrespective of the bird, should she have used her lights to show that she was police? No.

You didn't know she was a cop when you flipped the bird.

Like I said - I'm not condemning here, I have no right to. Just doing more musing.

 

[Stomper]

Maybe we're just sick of f-ed up rude behavior with jackholes running around like everyone owes them something and the world revolves around them.

Having said that, being polite FIRST goes a long way, then go from there. I don't give two rubs if someone "gets one up" on me, especially verbally or if they zip in front of me in traffic and I miss the traffic signal cycle because of it... big whoop.

My point earlier is, we aren't legally "obligated" as CHL holders to "avoid" confrontation. Now do I choose to use some maturity and make efforts to divert a conflict? Sure.

 

[U201491]

Every action has a reward or a punishment.
It is all in deciding what you want in life most. Conflict or Not.
Its all called choice.
Worry when that option is no longer there.
But be willing to take the punishment when you push that button.
You do and did have a choice after all.... Right ?

Don't pretend to be puzzled by an action that you knew would bring on conflict.
That won't justify or neutralize it.

 

[308]

Something really pissed me off this morning. It was about 8:10am and I was pulling out of the McDonald's after picking up my coffee, waiting for my turn to pull out into traffic. I saw there was ample space to fit into the traffic flow. The next car was about a 1/4 mile+ down the road. My motto is (given normal traffic flow) that when I pull out I should not effect others speed behind me, they shouldn't have to apply any break. If they do, I shouldn't have pulled out in front of them. So anyway, I pull out with more than the average acceleration. Next, I hear a honk behind me. I look back and the car that was a long ways away is right up in my trunk. The only way for this car to be in my trunk so soon is if they accelerated to well above the speed limit as i was pulling out. You're probably thinking that I just misjudged the speed of the car initially, but I'm telling you they were 1/4 mile+ down the road and this is a 35mph zone. Anyway, my window was still down from the drive through so immediately preceding the honk I displayed the bird out the window knowing I was not in the wrong. Next thing I know, the honking car turns on flashing red and blues, but only for a second. Once the initial shock wore off from realizing I just flipped off an undercover (not unmarked, I know the difference), I was even more pissed. I thought to myself, "just because you're undercover doesn't mean you can drive like an asshat and flash your lights when someone calls you on your BS". Directly proceeding the flashed lights I motioned for the car to pull off so we could talk about the misuse of light flashing. The car continued on down the road after I pulled off. I pulled back out onto the road and a few minutes later I saw the car turn off down the street towards the State Police building here in Milwaukie.

I should have got the license plate and filed a complaint. Time for a dashcam!

Thoughts? Am I overreacting?

I actually followed a Portland Officer back to their place on SE Burnside and asked him if he would give "me" a ticket if I went 45 in a 35 every morning on the way to work. He said "probably not". I mentioned that I had a hard time believing that, but have a nice day anyway.

The only reason for this is he went past me on a regular basis since we apparently go to work at the same time.

 

[The B]

I actually followed a Portland Officer back to their place on SE Burnside and asked him if he would give "me" a ticket if I went 45 in a 35 every morning on the way to work. He said "probably not". I mentioned that I had a hard time believing that, but have a nice day anyway.

The only reason for this is he went past me on a regular basis since we apparently go to work at the same time.

Most cops aren't traffic cops, and most cops in general won't write a ticket until you get to 15-16 over the limit.. so that's not a surprise that he would say that, especially since he's apparently in the habit of doing 10 over himself.

 

[308]

Most cops aren't traffic cops, and most cops in general won't write a ticket until you get to 15-16 over the limit.. so that's not a surprise that he would say that, especially since he's apparently in the habit of doing 10 over himself.

He was a LT...so yeah, you are most likely correct

 

[The B]

Indeed.. usually command cops don't even know where their ticket book is.

I hate that we have cops. I'm not anti-cop, and I don't hate cops, but I just hate the subculture/extra class that has been bred from their existence and evolution. All men are equal.... just some a little more equaler.

 

[CoastRange57]

As much as some of you think that dropping the bird is protected under free speech, I have seen more than a few cops write tickets for "disorderly conduct" when some one flipped the bird, especially in a situation where some one came up on you fast, and you did it in anger or frustration when you could have just let it go. If I dropped the bird on every tailgater I saw in a day, I would have my hand out the window.

The reason I know you can get a ticket for disorderly conduct it that as the smartest person in the world at 18, a Tri Met bus cut me off, so I went around him, flipped the bird over the roof at him while in my teenage wisdom failed to notice the LEO sitting at the intersection whom proceeded to pull me over. I might have walked had I been a bit more contrite and not such a smart azz, I told him that fer cut me off, so I flipped him off. He wrote that all down word for word on the ticket which the judge read and fined me $ 136 US 1978 dollars.

My grandd aughter has this saying from her favorite movie" Just let it go Grandpa..."

 

[Pittsmaster]

Immediately explaining yourself and admitting guilt is not necessarily the best thing to do when being questioned by police. I am NOT saying obstruct an investigation by any means... But not answering questions that are self incriminating is just a no brainer.

 

[jbett98]

I'll say one thing about the Portland area as far as driving goes. It's dang quiet compared to some other cities I've been in.
Back East, it's a continual horn honking racket 24/7.
Forget about using your turn signals, just lay on the horn and plow your way through and devil take the hindmost.

 

[Mark W.]

We work out of a gravel pit maybe 1/2 mile from Marion County Jail/Sheriffs Dept etc. And one night after night paving we had to wait for someone to unlock the gate so we could get back in. New Security guy locked it. And while sitting there for almost an hour we watched cop after cop Sheriff after Sheriff either blast down the 35mph road at 50+ or if they had to stop at the traffic light then they punched it until they were back up to about 65+ so they could almost slam on their brakes in order to make the driveway. It was like watching drunk high school kids with dads car.

We couldn't believe the waste of equipment and money then we remembered who paid for it. The dumb a33's standing there at 3am after paving the freeway all night.

In the old west it is said the line between outlaw and lawman went back and forth that in many cases the sheriff from one town would be the criminal in the next. I don't think things have changed drastically in the last 100 - 125 years.