Minnesota, here we go again. I'm betting ammo/gun sales are brisk

[GripItAndRipIt]

@GripItAndRipIt see red. This is what I'm questioning.

Is it now %100 fact if the police say it is?

Is it wrong to question the narrative?

Law enforcement also say Jeffery Epstein hung himself.

Given that motor vehicle codes in every state require valid registration, noncompliance constitutes probable cause for a lawful stop 100% of the time. Adding empirically that tens of thousands of those stops occur monthly, it is reasonable to conclude that the initial stop of Mr. Wright conformed to the very common practice of pulling over drivers with expired tags. This is not in any way out of the ordinary. So yes, "police say." Your Epstein analogy is unfortunately a fallacy: straw man. The two circumstances are vastly different -- the only intersection being some involvement of some law enforcement agency with all similarities ending there -- hence an invalid comparison.

The rational, objective conclusion supported by an overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that Duante Wright -- a felon with an outstanding warrant for a violent crime -- was indeed stopped lawfully for expired registration. What happened next was an unfortunate series of events starting with his noncompliance with lawful orders very likely stemming from his desire to not go to prison and his accordant lack of respect for the authority vested by our society in agents of the state tasked with impartially upholding the duly enacted laws of the land.

The claims that he was stopped for an object hanging from his mirror -- consequently a violation of MN motor vehicle code -- is proven false, as are any suggestions he was stopped for DWB. I myself -- my Slavic and Western European skintone notwithstanding -- have been stopped for that exact offense. Fortunately for me, I've never had a warrant nor am I inclined to present a threat to a police officer by noncompliance.

This is truly a sad story, one that was 100% avoidable. Sad that Duante's parents failed him so badly. That last sentence was also not an opinion, but a fact.

On a personal note, I hope you don't think I'm trying to pick a fight here -- I am not. I, like you, am interested in discovering objective truth. Oftentimes this is contrary to popular opinion indeed -- here we agree completely.

 

[Member 34319]

Given that motor vehicle codes in every state require valid registration, noncompliance constitutes probable cause for a lawful stop 100% of the time. Adding empirically that tens of thousands of those stops occur monthly, it is reasonable to conclude that the initial stop of Mr. Wright conformed to the very common practice of pulling over drivers with expired tags. This is not in any way out of the ordinary. So yes, "police say." Your Epstein analogy is unfortunately a fallacy: straw man. The two circumstances are vastly different -- the only intersection being some involvement of some law enforcement agency with all similarities ending there -- hence an invalid comparison.

The rational, objective conclusion supported by an overwhelming preponderance of the evidence is that Duante Wright -- a felon with an outstanding warrant for a violent crime -- was indeed stopped lawfully for expired registration. What happened next was an unfortunate series of events starting with his noncompliance with lawful orders very likely stemming from his desire to not go to prison and his accordant lack of respect for the authority vested by our society in agents of the state tasked with impartially upholding the duly enacted laws of the land.

The claims that he was stopped for an object hanging from his mirror -- consequently a violation of MN motor vehicle code -- is proven false, as are any suggestions he was stopped for DWB. I myself -- my Slavic and Western European skintone notwithstanding -- have been stopped for that exact offense. Fortunately for me, I've never had a warrant nor am I inclined to present a threat to a police officer by noncompliance.

This is truly a sad story, one that was 100% avoidable. Sad that Duante's parents failed him so badly. That last sentence was also not an opinion, but a fact.

On a personal note, I hope you don't think I'm trying to pick a fight here -- I am not. I, like you, am interested in discovering objective truth. Oftentimes this is contrary to popular opinion indeed -- here we agree completely.

Thanks for continuing the discussion. Definitely didn't feel like you were picking a fight. I may not have been wording things correctly to make my views understandable. My mind works way faster than my typing and vocabulary.

I am in total understanding of the rational on the side of lawfulness. Through the dialogue I had with a few here, I've come to better understand the other side too. I can totally understand why the black community sees it one way, and others see it as another. It's can be subjective depending on what lens you look through.

I learned many things through my earlier dialogue with the other members.

Though, in my opinion, I believe he was likely profiled first then pulled over for either the tags or the air freshener, it isn't much of an argument if one only looks at lawful aspects of things. In some ways I could also put into question how many of the tens of thousands of stops you referenced where because of profiling reasons first? That is why I keep asking to be proven wrong by means of the entire police footage. I also will continue to ask if it is considered moral for officers to use profiling as means to find legal reasons to make a traffic stop.

I was merely questioning if the stop should of ever happened. Then after fishing and profiling where introduced into the conversation I started questioning their constitutionality and morality. I learned that when operating a motor vehicle, your rights to the 4th amendment mean nothing if you are not a saint. In other words you must be perfect, because officers use profiling commonly (which I've learned is more common than I'd initially realized) and in a sense your rights don't matter if they can find legal reasons to pull you over. Which isn't all that hard to do with the laws involved with driving.

So in the case of Mr. Wright, it could of simply been an unfortunate set of events due to a routine traffic stop. Which is clearly easy to see if one only looks at the lawful side of things.

Or it could of been a young black kid in a nice car, not exactly doing anything illegal motor vehicle wise. It's been made known here it IS legal to drive with a warrant. Possibly profiled by police, common tactic, cop uses registration and or air freshener as legal means for the stop. Cop finds warrants, calls for back up, arrest is attempted. Kid try's to run, gets shot and dies.

A lot of ifs... I know. I imagine from the black communities perspective, this might be how they see it. Especially if they as a community have been pulled over numerous times for minor infractions. Legal, yes. Moral, questionably.

Ive said it before, I'm not trying to really take any side in this. Just understand things. Like why these communities riot and see zero justice in their communities.

I see expired tags all the time. My neighbors pretty daughter has been driving with expired tags for two years now. In my opinion, I imagine she doesn't meet the defining reasoning to be profiled for, so her tags have yet to be discovered. Which only leads to further my inquiries into what happens first, a profiling or noticing a tag?

Im in no way going to be changing anyone's opinions or views on things, but perh by discussing these matters, we can come to understand the opposing views?

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Thanks for continuing the discussion. Definitely didn't feel like you were picking a fight. I may not have been wording things correctly to make my views understandable. My mind works way faster than my typing and vocabulary.

I am in total understanding of the rational on the side of lawfulness. Through the dialogue I had with a few here, I've come to better understand the other side too. I can totally understand why the black community sees it one way, and others see it as another. It's can be subjective depending on what lens you look through.

I learned many things through my earlier dialogue with the other members.

Though, in my opinion, I believe he was likely profiled first then pulled over for either the tags or the air freshener, it isn't much of an argument if one only looks at lawful aspects of things. In some ways I could also put into question how many of the tens of thousands of stops you referenced where because of profiling reasons first? That is why I keep asking to be proven wrong by means of the entire police footage. I also will continue to ask if it is considered moral for officers to use profiling as means to find legal reasons to make a traffic stop.

I was merely questioning if the stop should of ever happened. Then after fishing and profiling where introduced into the conversation I started questioning their constitutionality and morality. I learned that when operating a motor vehicle, your rights to the 4th amendment mean nothing if you are not a saint. In other words you must be perfect, because officers use profiling commonly (which I've learned is more common than I'd initially realized) and in a sense your rights don't matter if they can find legal reasons to pull you over. Which isn't all that hard to do with the laws involved with driving.

So in the case of Mr. Wright, it could of simply been an unfortunate set of events due to a routine traffic stop. Which is clearly easy to see if one only looks at the lawful side of things.

Or it could of been a young black kid in a nice car, not exactly doing anything illegal motor vehicle wise. It's been made known here it IS legal to drive with a warrant. Possibly profiled by police, common tactic, cop uses registration and or air freshener as legal means for the stop. Cop finds warrants, calls for back up, arrest is attempted. Kid try's to run, gets shot and dies.

A lot of ifs... I know. I imagine from the black communities perspective, this might be how they see it. Especially if they as a community have been pulled over numerous times for minor infractions. Legal, yes. Moral, questionably.

Ive said it before, I'm not trying to really take any side in this. Just understand things. Like why these communities riot and see zero justice in their communities.

I see expired tags all the time. My neighbors pretty daughter has been driving with expired tags for two years now. In my opinion, I imagine she doesn't meet the defining reasoning to be profiled for, so her tags have yet to be discovered. Which only leads to further my inquiries into what happens first, a profiling or noticing a tag?

Im in no way going to be changing anyone's opinions or views on things, but perh by discussing these matters, we can come to understand the opposing views?

Please cite your evidence to substantiate your claim of racial profiling.

 

[Member 34319]

Please cite your evidence to substantiate your claim of racial profiling.

I could cite some here as you have in your subject. That's not where I'm going with this.

I'll add, that that's exactly what we are already doing. One side cites their data, the other theirs.

It's polarized.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Please cite your evidence to substantiate your claim of racial profiling.

The stop and frisk data I've seen indicates there was not actual racial profiling as such, however the areas where this was aggressively pursued were high crime areas and coincidentally disproportionately minority folks were present in those locations. So sometimes what looks like racial profiling can be something else.

 

[WillametteWill]

Im in no way going to be changing anyone's opinions or views on things, but perh by discussing these matters, we can come to understand the opposing views?

Yes, this, thank you. As Dennis Prager says, prefer clarity of someone's views over agreement. But don't underestimate not changing other's opinion as civil discourse is what we need.

Let me throw just a little tidbit of info out there. Officers like pulling vehicles over for equipment violations because if you happen to come upon a serial killer with a dead body in the passenger seat (happened in the area I worked), they you have factual probable cause instead of possibly more subjective, "He didn't stop at the limit line," with only the officer's testimony supporting the reason. Even if I saw someone commit a legit moving violation, before the red light came on I checked for any other equipment / registration violations to add to the reason for the stop. Key element...BEFORE.

And to be clear, I have no factual information on the tag status or air fresheners from the rear view on this case other than media reports. For the initiating officer's sake, it better be true.

 

[Member 34319]

The stop and frisk data I've seen indicates there was not actual racial profiling as such, however the areas where this was aggressively pursued were high crime areas and coincidentally disproportionately minority folks were present in those locations. So sometimes what looks like racial profiling can be something else.

Just as their is data for this. There is data for the opposite side. From a law enforcement perspective, one could easily show that in a certain area only or a majority of crimes is committed by a certain race. So in some sense, the profiling could be justifiable.

It's really just which lens you are looking through.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I could cite some here as you have in your subject. That's not where I'm going with this.

I'll add, that that's exactly what we are already doing. One side cites their data, the other theirs.

It's polarized.

You suggested this man was stopped due to racial profiling, not expired tags. I'm curious if your position comes from a factual basis or merely speculation.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Just as their is data for this. There is data for the opposite side. From a law enforcement perspective, one could easily show that in a certain area only or a majority of crimes is committed by a certain race. So in some sense, the profiling could be justifiable.

It's really just which lens you are looking through.

Racial profiling is never justifiable. The Fourth Amendment guarantees this. The fact that a disproportionate number of non-whites experience law enforcement contact in high crime areas in which they are unfortuate enough to reside is not evidence of racial profiling, rather a denser concentration of criminal actors in a given locale.

 

[Member 34319]

You suggested this man was stopped due to racial profiling, not expired tags. I'm curious if your position comes from a factual basis or merely speculation.

No. I'm only speculating that Mr Wright was pulled over due to profiling. It could have been for racial reasons or for the lawful understanding of profiling.

Racial profiling is never justifiable. The Fourth Amendment guarantees this. The fact that a disproportionate number of non-whites experience law enforcement contact in high crime areas in which they are unfortuate enough to reside is not evidence of racial profiling, rather a denser concentration of criminal actors in a given locale.

Can you see how there could be an issue with this?

If the black community only sees blacks getting pulled over. Especially if they haven't truly committed a major driving infraction. Constantly getting pulled over for the most minor infraction, yet white communities aren't getting pulled over all the time for minor infractions. Add to that, whites with similar infractions go incited within these cities due to lack of being profiled. Is it good profiling or racism?

 

[EHJ]

Just for the record - In many larger cities and well funded departments nationwide, automated tag readers have been in use for years now.
The vehicle based type. Cruisers just rolling along have these cameras scanning for every tag they can see and then search databases for any information/status/etc. Automatically. If a hit comes up for a tag then the officer is alerted on his cruisers terminal.

Automated License Plate Readers (ALPRs)

Automated license plate readers (ALPRs) are high-speed, computer-controlled camera systems that are typically mounted on street poles, streetlights, highway overpasses, mobile trailers, or attached to police squad cars. ALPRs automatically capture all license plate numbers that come into view,...

www.eff.org

Don't worry. We'll all soon be convinced that a humans racist proclivities will no longer be an issue.
We will soon be convinced that we will all want the algorithm to do it for us.

 

[EHJ]

A time-lapse visualization of the data collected by Oakland Police Department vehicles mounted with license plate readers...

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

No. I'm only speculating that Mr Wright was pulled over due to profiling. It could have been for racial reasons or for the lawful understanding of profiling.

It could also have been for expired tags... which is a normative practice in every jurisdiction. In the absence of contradictory evidence, it is reasonable to conclude he was lawfully stopped for the stated reason. The only reason you admit to speculating is because this felon with warrants was black: Do you acknowledge it's possible for an African American to simply have law enforcement contact for a valid reason such as expired registration or equipment violations just their white counterparts? Or does it have to be racial profiling? Some of the time? All of the time?

Can you see how there could be an issue with this?

If the black community only sees blacks getting pulled over. Especially if they haven't truly committed a major driving infraction. Constantly getting pulled over for the most minor infraction, yet white communities aren't getting pulled over all the time for minor infractions. Add to that, whites with similar infractions go incited within these cities due to lack of being profiled. Is it good profiling or racism?

If the "black community" only sees blacks getting pulled over, they are not looking very hard.

And for the second time, there is no "good profiling." Unless, I suppose, the "profile" is being out of compliance with the motor vehicle code. Then yes, officer why did you stop the black/Asian/Hispanic/white/Native American/Arabic motorist? He fit the profile...

 

[Dinglenutz]

If the black community only sees blacks getting pulled over.

In my white community I only ever see whites getting pulled over. Take a moment and reason out why. The answer is actually in the question.

 

[Member 34319]

It could also have been for expired tags... which is a normative practice in every jurisdiction. In the absence of contradictory evidence, it is reasonable to conclude he was lawfully stopped for the stated reason. The only reason you admit to speculating is because this felon with warrants was black: Do you acknowledge it's possible for an African American to simply have law enforcement contact for a valid reason such as expired registration or equipment violations just their white counterparts? Or does it have to be racial profiling? Some of the time? All of the time?

If the "black community" only sees blacks getting pulled over, they are not looking very hard.

And for the second time, there is no "good profiling." Unless, I suppose, the "profile" is being out of compliance with the motor vehicle code. Then yes, officer why did you stop the black/Asian/Hispanic/white/Native American/Arabic motorist? He fit the profile...

I tried to refrain from adding his race this whole time. I didn't really add racial profiling to many of my posts.

As for your questions, I don't really have any good answers to any of them. However, I like that you are asking questions. It's really hard to state it is racism, it's also really hard to state it is not. That is all I'm trying to state. I'm in agreement with both sides for many reasons.

I do appreciate that you are working through this with me. It's not as clear as it should be.

I agree. There is no good profiling. I really struggle with that tactic. I am curious if there is better means to enforce motor vehicle code that might alleviate some of this mess. The tech that @EHJ mentioned above, and future technologies may truly be the cure for this whole thing.

 

[Member 34319]

In my white community I only ever see whites getting pulled over. Take a moment and reason out why. The answer is actually in the question.

Exactly, one will only see what they want to see. Trust me. I'm not trying to justify the black or white communities. Just trying to understand their reasoning. I'd probably be labeled a racist for attempting to understand because of the color of my skin. So truly I don't have much of a fight in this one. If I can illustrate that these issues aren't as simple as one makes them, perhaps we can all come together a bit more and move on together instead of separating further?

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I tried to refrain from adding his race this whole time. I didn't really add racial profiling to many of my posts.

What other kind of profiling is there? And in this specific instance, racial profiling would be the only relevant kind, would it not?

As for your questions, I don't really have any good answers to any of them. However, I like that you are asking questions. It's really hard to state it is racism, it's also really hard to state it is not. That is all I'm trying to state. I'm in agreement with both sides for many reasons.

It is easier to state it is not racism if there is no evidence it is racism. A black motorist getting stopped by police is not evidence of racism prima facie.

I do appreciate that you are working through this with me. It's not as clear as it should be.

To the contrary, I think it's very clear: We have a motorist with expired registration who is lawfully stopped on probable cause who then resists lawful arrest and ends up dead because a police officer allegedly deployed the wrong tool.

I agree. There is no good profiling. I really struggle with that tactic. I am curious if there is better means to enforce motor vehicle code that might alleviate some of this mess. The tech that @EHJ mentioned above, and future technologies may truly be the cure for this whole thing.

What mess? It is a basic responsibility of citizenship to be in compliance with the duly-enacted just laws. I suppose we can debate whether motor vehicle registration is a just law -- most rational people would conclude it is. So, don't drive around with expired registration... problem solved. No more "mess." And then, if you do happen to get caught due to your own negligence and irresponsibility, DO NOT RESIST ARREST. Problem solved. No more "mess."

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

In my white community I only ever see whites getting pulled over. Take a moment and reason out why. The answer is actually in the question.

Come on man! Everybody knows if a white person is pulled over it's only so the cop can give them free baseball tickets or a gift card to Starbucks.

 

[Dinglenutz]

Exactly, one will only see what they want to see.

Has little to do with wanting and a lot to do with simple demographics.

 

[Member 34319]

What other kind of profiling is there? And in this specific instance, racial profiling would be the only relevant kind, would it not?

It is easier to state it is not racism if there is no evidence it is racism. A black motorist getting stopped by police is not evidence of racism prima facie.


To the contrary, I think it's very clear: We have a motorist with expired registration who is lawfully stopped on probable cause who then resists lawful arrest and ends up dead because a police officer allegedly deployed the wrong tool.


What mess? It is a basic responsibility of citizenship to be in compliance with the duly-enacted just laws. I suppose we can debate whether motor vehicle registration is a just law -- most rational people would conclude it is. So, don't drive around with expired registration... problem solved. No more "mess." And then, if you do happen to get caught due to your own negligence and irresponsibility, DO NOT RESIST ARREST. Problem solved. No more "mess."

I agree with a lot of what you stated here. I don't have all of the reasons and or exacting terminology to explain the other side. I'm just merely trying to understand it. If there is room to question, it's not exact. The fact that either sides narratives can be picked apart shows that there can be a divide.

If profiling can be proven only one time to be that of racial profiling, wouldn't that allow all profiling to come into question? Has racial profiling been proven, yes.

I agree, it can be easier to just look at the police statement, that he was pulled over for expired tags. Wholeheartedly, that's the easiest thing to do. Many that look at it from the side of law enforcement would simply just go that route.

I know I'm not doing the easiest thing here, trying to understand the other side, but I see some benefits to doing so. That's what I think I'm trying to describe as a mess. The current situation we are in, where either side simply sees the other as wrong vs trying to find a middle. Something isn't working, or maybe it is. I truly don't know.