Mindset...it's not about "fighting"

[ZigZagZeke]

My example of adjusting my goals in a paintball game was not meant to equate paintball training with combat. Paintball is excellent training for tactics and point-and-shoot muscle memory (I'm still very good out to 25 yards without using sights). My point was that we can get stuck in a scenario with the tactical problem at hand and forget the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal in a street assault or an active shooter situation is to get home safely, and possibly to save some lives in addition to your own. The best way to do that MAY be to run away, not engage. My point was that sometimes stepping back to see the big picture is helpful.

In the movie "The Untouchables", Sean Connery's character keeps asking the pointed question, "What are you prepared to do?" That was his emphasis, not mine. It was his way of asking his boss to think ahead and have a plan that can be activated on the spot. If X, then Y. No pondering. No hesitation. And further, the implication is that the opposition should understand exactly what the consequences are of any aggressive action. Maybe Don Vito Corleone is the best example of this:

But let me say this. I am a superstitious man, a ridiculous failing but I must confess it here. And so if some unlucky accident should befall my youngest son, if some police officer should accidentally shoot him, if he should hang himself while in his jail cell, if new witnesses appear to testify to his guilt, my superstition will make me feel that it was the result of the ill will still borne me by some people here. Let me go further. If my son is struck by a bolt of lightning I will blame some of the people here. If his plane should fall into the sea or his ship sink beneath the waves of the ocean, if he should catch a mortal fever, if his automobile should be struck by a train, such is my superstition that I would blame the ill will felt by people here. Gentlemen, that ill will, that bad luck, I could never forgive. But aside from that let me swear by the souls of my grandchildren that I will never break the peace we have made. After all, are we or are we not better men than those pezzonovanti who have killed countless millions of men in our lifetimes?

 

[NWMA]

Mine in bold:

While I can see what the OP is trying to articulate as a series of ideas, The fundamental premise of having a predator mind set is fatally flawed! Disagree obviously but respect your position.

Humans are programmed differently then the animals, and we have a much more complex arrangement of responses to stimuli then any other species! Agree. But it was an analogy. All analogies fail at some point.

That said, we are predisposed to acting out with violence when threatened as part of our instincts! As pointed out by AndyinEverson, Situational awareness is probably the number one advantage in actively avoiding conflict, because lets face it, we humans are not very well equipped to fight on our own with out tools! Agree...but again I wasn't speaking about SA. I think we all agree that good SA will avoid most problems in the first place. But I've said multiple times now, that wasn't what I was talking about.

We humans come programmed kind of like the Sheepdog, not the wolf, and I think if we were to think of a proper mind set, the Sheep Dog is the correct one! Humans come with a lot of different programming (as you say below). And some programming can be overcome. Actually I don't think you and I are that far out of alignment.

If thinking your self like a predator, you open your self up to attack from all others, because you have become THE apex threat that needs to be stopped first! If you see an act of violence that shocks your conscience, which is what I'm talking about, I don't think your point applies. But I may misunderstand. It sounds like you think I'm suggesting to walk around looking like the baddest, meanest mother f***er in town...which is not what I'm suggesting.

Then there is the Fight or Flight programming! Some of us have been programmed to fight and some are programmed to flee, and this is where training really comes into play, re setting the program to enhance certain aspects to give additional skills [THIS is what I'm talking about], because ultimately, survival is THE goal, not fighting it out just for the sake of fighting! I really don't think I implied fighting for the sake of fighting. Indeed the very premise was to change your mindset that it's NOT about fighting. It's about accomplishing a task. That MAY be fighting/killing as a means of survival or protection of others, or it may mean escaping or any number of other things. The point is not getting stuck in a FIGHTING mindset but one of MY GOAL WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED, whatever that goal may be. The smart predator does not have to choose to fight. Running is often the best answer. But I believe there's a difference between running out of fear vs. a realistic read of the situation.

Anyway, we agree that survival is the goal. We may differ on the mindset we employ to achieve it.

Finally, the last flaw is the fighting it's self, if you find your self in a fight, you are all ready at a disadvantage, and if you are fighting by some one rules, you will loose! There is no such thing as a fair fight, and if you get your self into the mind set of following rules, you loose almost every time! I think here you are supporting my point.

Here is the ultimate failure, we as a genteel society HAVE adopted R.O.E's that we are forced to adhere to, and this is where we get screwed up with our programing, so we have to train out these R.O.E's so that we can act as needed when needed and avoid breaking these set R.O.E's so we don't get punished for simple doing what must be done to survive! No disagreement there.

 

[No_Regerts]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Honey badger just don't..

 

[USMC-03]

Having had four combat tours I had to develop a mindset thatcould be used within the Rules Of Engagement in order to survive.

Just because a little humor noir never hurt...

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Nope a little humor noir or otherwise never hurt ... Unless it leads to a blackeye!
( Not that I'm speaking from experience or have had that happen to me )
Andy

 

[Libertas7]

Predators spar and "fight" with members of their species

I consider sparing and fighting to be quite different. I see sparing more for fun or training, you might try to "beat" the other person in the sense that you win and they lose, and not to harm them. Fighting on the other hand I see as trying to cause damage. Have you seen Star Wars? Are you familiar with the part that Yoda said "Do or do not, there is no try"? He was of course attempting to make a point, but there is such a thing as trying, and that's to see whether you do or don't do. To see if you succeed or fail. And that's kind of how I view fighting, To see whether you live... or die. Hopefully you can stay out of situations like that though. And I do agree with the title, it's not about fighting, It's about survival!

 

[Libertas7]

Just because a little humor noir never hurt...

 

[NWMA]

I consider sparing and fighting to be quite different.

They are very different. (And why I put "fighting" in quotes.)

So different that sparring can give you a completely wrong idea about what fighting is.

But the point was that when an animal "spars" (play is a better word) or competes in dominance competitions for breeding rights, they are playing by a set of rules. They usually aren't out to kill each other. A big horn sheep with a bad attitude could simply ram his competitors in the side, killing them. But they don't do that because they tend not to kill within their species.

But facing a dangerous animal outside their species it's a very different story.

Another way to make my point would be to consider those trying to inflict horrific violence on you or others as a different species. It's not a competition for dominance but a fight for your life.

Even though we should know better, humans default to facing each other in violent confrontations. Like the big horn sheep clanging horns.

A more useful (and safe!) is to think like a tiger biting his prey's neck from behind. It's a safer position and a more useful technique.

Thus the idea of a predator mindset. Rather than simply a fighting mindset.

Analogy only goes so far but in terms of violent encounters this seems like it should be common sense. Yet it is not, because often good guys tend to default to dominance game tactics when they should be working to end the fight decisively.

The real dangerous bad guys do not think in terms of dominance games. We had best be on the same page if we have to face one.

 

[P7M13]

In fact I might say that I know more folks who are stuck in their way of thinking , than not.
Andy

Saw one just last week. Friend of yours?

 

[jbett98]

My head hurts.

 

[Libertas7]

In TRAINING, I like to think of myself as a cat, playing with a mouse. The mouse is no threat to me; it's a toy that I bend to my will. I play with it, experimenting, learning, but all the while communicating "I can kill you at any moment I choose."

Isn't that a kind of dangerous way to train? Unless you are a LEO you're probably not seeking out bad guys, the bad guys could be seeking you out though. But whatever way you run into them they can be a threat to you. To practice differently would not be the safest, I'd think. Is not training to help you when you need it the most? Bad guys are not mice or toys to play with, they're a threat. If this was an analogy it must of went over my head because I don't see it.

 

[NWMA]

Isn't that a kind of dangerous way to train? Unless you are a LEO you're probably not seeking out bad guys, the bad guys could be seeking you out though. But whatever way you run into them they can be a threat to you. To practice differently would not be the safest, I'd think. Is not training to help you when you need it the most? Bad guys are not mice or toys to play with, they're a threat. If this was an analogy it must of went over my head because I don't see it.

Very good question.

The cat thing is just one drill among many to help develop a stronger mindset. Notice also that I talked about playing, learning and experimenting. It's about learning and getting better. Doing push ups doesn't make you a better fighter by itself...but if you do 200 push ups a day for 5 years it's certainly going to help right? These kind of drills are the same thing, just one method among many to get stronger.

No training drill is perfect or else all our training partners would be dead, right? Concessions have to be made for safety.

One thing I'm trying to convey is that focusing on fear is not useful.

Driving on a slick mountain road during a snow storm is dangerous and it's reasonable to fear those conditions. And that fear is good because it demands your attention and requires you to change your behavior. But do we dwell on that fear? No. We recognize our fear and act to mitigate it by driving more cautiously.

A different way of thinking about it...how well do you perform when you're afraid? Better or worse? Most of us perform worse. We tend to perform best when we are confident, happy, in control, etc.

So the fear is useful in reminding us that a threat is dangerous. But we recognize that danger and do our best to put fear aside and focus on what must be done to end the threat.

Some people access anger when they fight (it's great for overcoming fear). Others are more cold and calculating.

I know threats are dangerous, but that's all the more reason I have to perform my best to prevail. It's not that I ignore the threat, I just find it's more practical focus on how I'm going to end it. A huge part of that is our mindset.

Predator, sheep dog, shepherd...use whatever words you like. Violence is just a problem to be solved. Not to say it's easy, but dwelling on the difficulty isn't helpful.

Of course confidence has to be based on real skill and ability. The only way to develop that confidence is through hard work, training, practice, etc.

 

[Joe13]

I can't believe I read this whole thread... frankly it was a huge waste of time.

There are so many others threads about this stuff that don't use analogies.

That's pretty much what I have to say and won't be back to this one.

 

[Libertas7]

One thing I'm trying to convey is that focusing on fear is not useful.

Driving on a slick mountain road during a snow storm is dangerous and it's reasonable to fear those conditions. And that fear is good because it demands your attention and requires you to change your behavior. But do we dwell on that fear? No. We recognize our fear and act to mitigate it by driving more cautiously.

I definitely agree that being controlled by fear is not only counterproductive but downright harmful. Although, like you said, it can be useful.

Of course confidence has to be based on real skill and ability.

Which is part of the reason I don't think I could train like that. My skills and abilities aren't the only factor in the equation, and I don't what to revert to my training and unintentionally underestimate my opponent/s (or Prey). Just my POV at the moment.

 

[albin25]

Well I see it as we're hammers and the they're like eggs to be smashed unless they're hardboiled then we're screwdrivers and they're screwed unless we're Robertsons in a Phillips world which would make them fire-hydrants and us more like feral dogs pissing on trees or maybe we're more like big ol' birds in those trees dropping poop on some guy that brought his pussycat that chased a squirrel that threw his nuts at some sheep that had really no idea that they were actually just metaphorical people with hammers smooshing eggs that were .....

......awww, never mind

 

[NWMA]

Next time I post something I'll try to use smaller words.

 

[jbett98]

Brevity comes to mind.

 

[NWMA]

Brevity comes to mind.

Fair enough. But you also don't have to read it.

 

[jbett98]

I learned speed reading in the 8th grade. It comes in handy on long paragraphs.