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Magazine Disconnect... Good idea or bad idea for CCW... Talk amongst yourselves.

Discussion in 'Handgun Discussion' started by JC9995, Feb 15, 2011.

  1. JC9995

    JC9995 Greater "Clackamas" Active Member

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    OK, so I have been drooling over the Ruger LCP since it was announced.... UNTIL I got my hands on one last week at my local shop. The guy behind the counter, who knew I was waiting for it to come in, promptly tells me I wont like it because of the Mag disconnect. He shows me what it is and how it works.... I then walk out of the store without buying the gun I was drooling over no more than 5 minutes earlier.

    So, my question is.... For a CCW weapon, is the Mag disconnect a good idea.... a bad idea... or cant decide.

    I don't like it myself, for tactical reasons. I'm curious if I'm not seeing the whole picture.
     
  2. raftman

    raftman Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Generally speaking, I don't like mag disconnects. At best they really don't serve any benefit, they're a solution without a real problem. I honestly don't see the point. At worst, they can present a risk, such as disabling your firearm if the mag is unintentionally released as a result of a struggle or something. It would prevent you from firing the one round you have in the chamber, and one round is infinitely better than none at all. A mag disconnect isn't a deal breaker on a plinker, but likely would be one with a CCW.
     
  3. Murphy's Law. I don't want another thing that can fail when I need my gun the most.

    I don't think this type of safety is designed for weapons in storage. We all know that weapons should be stored unloaded, and that's what all the gun safety crap says.

    I think this safety is designed for a carried weapon. The amount of training it takes for this safety to be a benefit is far greater than the training one needs to retain their weapon.

    I've trained in weapon retention and I'm confident that no one is going to take my weapon from me. I'm willing to bet that people are more likely to accidentally release their magazine during a draw, than to intentional release their magazine while they struggle with someone for control over their firearm.
     
  4. jgeist

    jgeist Oregon Active Member

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    +1 X2....
     
  5. The Cheese

    The Cheese somewhere special Member

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    total waste. They are annoying, especially when you don't have a decocker.
     
  6. usfatboy01

    usfatboy01 Hillsboro, Oregon Member

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    Safe gun handling get's it done!
     
  7. orygun

    orygun West Linn Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I believe that a magazine disconnect is more of a "feel good" thing for a manufacturer and some liability lawyers. Personally I do not believe they serve any good purpose. I would prefer that any gun I own NOT have one. I didn't know that the Ruger LCP had one when I was looking at little pistols. If I had liked the LCP as much as the Taurus TCP and then found out, it would have been the deciding factor in choosing the Taurus.
    I agree that it would be difficult to hit the mag release as someone was trying to wrestle my gun away from me. I think it would be easier to get the muzzle pointed in a good direction and pull the trigger!
    I'll say that if you liked the LCP except for the mag disconnect, go buy the TCP. I think you'll be glad you did.
     
  8. donMiguel

    donMiguel SouthKingWA Active Member

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    Years ago, as many police departments were transitioning from revolvers to autoloaders, Massad Ayoob appeared to see some virtue in safeties including magazine disconnect safeties. In "The Semiautomatic Pistol in Police Service and Self-Defense" (1987...jeez...that explains the gray hairs...) he cited several anecdotal tales where bad guy ignorance in the face of an autoloader saved the officer when he lost control of his weapon. Probably applies more to LE, where they carry exposed on the hip and interact more closely with the bad guy. As CC we should not be presenting such a juicy target, and avoid direct interaction when possible. And while general ignorance may still apply, I think bad guys are a little more aware of how to operate weapons.
    For me personally, zero or one safeties is quite enough. My EDC has one.
     
  9. Greg

    Greg NE PDX Active Member

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    Any equipment (firearms or otherwise) will be well suited to some situations and not well suited to other situations. The firearm you’d choose to hunt is a lot different than the firearm you’d choose to stop someone who has invaded your home in the middle of the night. I carry different firearms in different situations. I realize that this is not an option for everyone.

    Here’s my perspective on magazine disconnect:

    I carry concealed every day when I am going to my downtown office. It is the simplest firearm I can find (no magazine disconnect). This makes things simpler and easier for me should I have to defend myself against criminal attack. If someone tries to mug me and presents a threat to my life, the answer is simple. However, there are more complicated situations in my life.

    I am an avid hiker and I always carry when it is legal to do so. I have been menaced and chased by dogs in the woods many times. By many times, I mean two or three times per year over the last 15 years. So far, I have been able to deal with every situation using less lethal means. Even when my blood has been shed.

    Imagine this: you’re hiking along your favorite trail minding your own business. Next thing you know, a dog that is 75% of your body weight has appeared and lunges. You manage get your arm in front of your neck. It sinks its teeth into your forearm and starts to shake it from side to side. What do you do? Let’s pretend that you have time to ponder your situation. You realize that human fatalities from dog attack are rare, but the loss of your job/career from loss of your arm is a real possibility. Is your life on the line or just your limb? Is the life of this dog worth being able to provide for your family? The most important question here is: How will the owner respond? If it is a beloved family pet, the owner may consider the animal a member of the family and respond as if you’ve shot their child. By the way, I am an animal lover and can understand this reaction. Now, you’ve got someone ready to fight to the death. Are you prepared to shoot this person who thinks they are acting in defense of their family member? I am not unless that person meets a whole host of criteria. In other words, you may not be able to tell if this situation is a threat to your life.

    My plan is to try to combine physical control with communication. However, if I am injured enough and the person can close the distance fast enough, (s)he might be able to grapple with me. In this situation (however remote), I would most likely drop my magazine, rely on my open hand (singular due to injury) defense, and pray. If I thought I could take a beating and survive, I would choose that. If the person gets my pistol from me and it is ready to fire, what do you think will happen? Would you be willing to bet your life that they’d have a full understanding of the situation, act rationally, and not shoot someone who’s down and injured? Will either of the juries (plural because you can count on both criminal and civil), understand your situation or theirs? Will you be the plaintiff or the defendant? The choice will not be yours. It will be the DA’s.

    My choice of carry reflects my situation of the moment (am I downtown or in the woods?). In the above example, it is likely that the dog owner will be able to grapple, take my pistol, AND choose to pull the trigger. Therefore, a magazine disconnect may save my life. No one tool is suited to every combination of job/situation and contingency plan.

    Situation prediction has saved my life and the lives of my companions many times. Please do your best to plan for contingencies. Please set aside your assumptions about things like whether or not someone can take your fire arm from you. Assumptions will impede your ability to plan.

    My point: just because you haven’t thought of situations where magazine disconnects can be useful, doesn’t mean they don’t exist. One can say that self defense is really about having options. It is better to have one than not have one. I want a magazine disconnect because then I can choose to use it if I need it. In other words, if you find yourself wrestling with someone you don’t want to shoot (say a dog owner), it would be useful to be able to disable your firearm. If you don’t need this choice, it doesn’t hurt you to have it.

    Every year in the United States, 400,000 people are seriously injured by dogs. 5% of ER visits are due to dog attack. Of course, this won’t happen to you. Choose your carry for your situation.
     
  10. I'm sorry, but if I've had a 150# dog chewing on my arm, I'm already at a severe disadvantage.
    I also don't know if the dog owner is armed, or a trained fighter.
    I may be able to disable my firearm, but it's still a damn good bludgeoning weapon, and the dog owner is in proximity to it.
    There are several instances of people being beaten to death. I don't plan on being one of them.
     
  11. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Mag "safety" is the first thing I remove on a Browning Hi Power, and if possible on any other fighting handgun. Absurd idea that may have already cost a few folks their lives

    Reminds me of the 1911 grip safety, although that was by far a lot less dangerous idea
     
  12. One-Eyed Ross

    One-Eyed Ross Winlock, WA Well-Known Member

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    Who needs something else to get between me and the pistol going bang?
     
  13. iamme

    iamme Lane County Well-Known Member

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    First thing I did to my buckmark was rmeove the mag disconnect. It's a lawyer feature.
     
  14. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    I like the long posts.
    It's a Taurus.It can't be a good thing.
    Buy a real gun.


    hehehe
     
  15. jgeist

    jgeist Oregon Active Member

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    You are too kind, if a dog attacks me or my family (anyone around me for that matter) it is going to get shot. As far as the "owner" response, well they can either choose to get shot as well or get their *** sued off for not being able to control their pet.. I have owned Akita and Chows for the better part of my life and not a single one EVER showed unnecessary aggression, if they would have I would have put them down myself.

    The only blood on me will be the dogs, I will NEVER allow a aggressive animal or irresponsible pet owner get between me or my family...
     
  16. Swedish K

    Swedish K SW Washington Moderator Staff Member

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    The CHP specifically requires mag safety on all handguns in their bidding process - for some reason they would rather teach their officers to dump the mag in a struggle for their weapon than to teach them proper weapons retention skills. Long ago they were sued by the family of a slain officer as they found all of his empty brass in his pocket at the scene - lazy range officers lead to them training them to empty the brass into their pockets and cost the officer his life - some day soon the mag safety will result in a similar suit because an officer will bump the mag release accidentally or dump the mag during a struggle and be shot by the BG while his own weapon has a round in the chamber but it wont go bang because the mag isn't seated correctly.

    Just my opinion...
     
  17. jgeist

    jgeist Oregon Active Member

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    +1
     
  18. marty8587

    marty8587 NE Portland Active Member

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    If the mag was released I still wouldn't trust it not to fire!
     
  19. pioneer461

    pioneer461 Columbia County, Oregon Active Member

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    I've trained for several years, in weapon retention training, when struggling for your gun to keep a bad guy from taking it from you, pop the magazine, disengage and draw your back up gun. If only the Chief in Rainier had been able to do that!
     
  20. Greg

    Greg NE PDX Active Member

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    If your pistol has a magazine disconnect, you can drop your magazine and buy your self some time. A lot of time, actually.
    If I'm struggling with someone I don't want to shoot (like a dog owner who would not normally be violent), I can drop the magazine and let him take the pistol. He will most likely take it, and wonder what to do with it. This gives me time to make some distance and retry communication. However, if he takes it, turns it on me, fires, then wonders why it didn't go bang, I've got tons of time to kick him in the bean bag and win the fight without using deadly force. This will go really far with the juries (notice plural). It will also go really far with the responding officers who might let me go home instead of to jail. Remember that he may say you tried to shoot him and hit the dog instead. The juries will only see the situation as the DA wants them to see it.
    Also, remember that many people go to jail for defending themselves too vigorously. Juries often view a situation like this as being black and white: GUN vs. NO-GUN. They really don't understand the disparity of force portion of the situation. They expect that anyone who sees a gun will just put their hands up like in the movies.
    Remember Larry Hickey in Arizona. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/Network_2010-9.pdf