Left has lost gun control debate

[Blitzkrieg]

Again, more ignorance. I guess you slept through your civics classes. "National Socialism" is the NAZI'S term for Fascism, as far-RIGHT wing as it gets, actually a corporate/military partnership to own the state, dispensing with national elections to form a military dictatorship, brainwashing the citizenry to accept it. It has nothing to do with the principles of Socialism other than state planning of the economy---they just co-opted the name "Socialism" becuse it was popular in Germany's elections in the late 1920's and helped them confuse the voters and take over and END elections.

Yah, Communism is FAR Left, but you will find them to be very scarce in this century. What the heck are you reading to even think about Lenin? The only Leninists I know of are in their nineties now and their politics are senile too. Lenin was important a century ago in the age of the end of FEUDALISM in Russia and Prussia, but even Karl Marx expected a very different development of Socialism in the advanced "Western" democracies. Marx allowed that if elections were fair that educated voters would be able to restrain monarchists and greedy oligarchs' corporations and revolution to a representative democracy would be peaceful. You will have to look far and wide to find a Leninist today or any "Liberal" that follows Lenin.

No, you do NOT know what the "Left" is. You don't even know what a Nazi is. A suggestion: you are looking through your political binoculars BACKWARD.........................elsullo

I see the real sleeper and it isn't me. You apparently had a libtard for your government or civics professor or you get your political education from Hollywierd movies. National SOCIALISM is a middle to left system

Paleo conservatives (like me) in the USA are not "right wing" we are the carriers of what is left of our original institutions. Liberals are radical insurrectionists bent on the destruction of our founding, and they have very nearly accomplished it. Lenin, Trotsky and Marx would be proud

 

[strong_epoxy]

This order was simply written out of spite by a bully. Obama REALLY does not like his constituents and it's reflected here. His election caused one of the biggest gun buys in history with no noticeable increase in crime (with the exception of his ATF supplying guns to murderous Mexican gang members, then standing by while the media blamed it on US citizens.) Furthermore this country's been a huge sink for the worlds surplus ammo safely disposing it in the hills of deserts and ranges. I think Americans have observed those facts and have concluded the 2nd amendment is indeed reasonable. Obama did the only thing he could to stick it in the eye of Americans which was to deny the repatriation of great, historical firearms to their owners: the American people.

 

[Silver Fox]

....Pieces of our history that I will probably never be able to afford.):{

I wish someone really smart would calculate the loss tax revenue due to this decision. Let's just say the rifles were imported with a value of $450.00 each. Now let's say the import FET (Federal Exise Tax) is 10% that would be $45.00 each. Now let's calculate $45.00 x 850,000 rifles that would be $38,250,000.00. That's just an example. I do not know the import FET nor the value place on the rifles. Just sayin' need someone smart.

Good news, we now have it out in the open were the President stands on the gun control issue. He was smart focusing the first two years on his minor issues that he signed into law, now it's just the guns for the last two.

SF-

 

[elsullo]

Sadly, I agree with this. Obama really detests gun-fancying patriots and does not want them to have the political power that owning a gun gives a citizen. He can't help himself, no matter what his political cost! This may sound racist, but bear with me: Everybody has heard of the stereotyped "White Liberal Guilt", a tendency to tolerate minority crime and outrageous behavior because of a collective sense of white "guilt" over past slavery and racist apartheid Jim Crow policies. Well, I think that there is a similar "Black Liberal Guilt" that motivates upper-class minorities to oppose guns out of a collective "guilt" over minority gun criminals and drug gangsters shaming their race. They want to eliminate the guns that allow that illegal criminal behavior that makes other decent minorities look bad by association. It's a simplistic reflex: eliminate guns and thus eliminate the criminal behavior that embarasses their race. Upper-crust Whites have it too: eliminate guns, and the criminal behaviour of "white trash" will no longer shame White people. The cause on both sides is the same: an elitism of thought that their "upper-class" achievement now separates them from their shameful roots.

Ironically, it was only a few years ago that China was manufacturing Garand M1 copies and selling them to the USA! Obama would prefer this, it seems, rather than have back our own USA manufactured artworks..........................elsullo

This order was simply written out of spite by a bully. Obama REALLY does not like his constituents and it's reflected here. His election caused one of the biggest gun buys in history with no noticeable increase in crime (with the exception of his ATF supplying guns to murderous Mexican gang members, then standing by while the media blamed it on US citizens.) Furthermore this country's been a huge sink for the worlds surplus ammo safely disposing it in the hills of deserts and ranges. I think Americans have observed those facts and have concluded the 2nd amendment is indeed reasonable. Obama did the only thing he could to stick it in the eye of Americans which was to deny the repatriation of great, historical firearms to their owners: the American people.

 

[bugeye]

I see the real sleeper and it isn't me. You apparently had a libtard for your governement or civics professor or you get your political education from Hollywierd movies. National SOCIALISM is a middle to left system

Paleo conservatives (like me) in the USA are not "right wing" we are the carriers of what is left of our original institutions. Liberals are radical insurrectionists bent on the destruction of our founding, and they have very nearly accomplished it. Lenin, Trotsky and Marx would be proud

According to Blitz, any common, agreed to, definitions of political terms are mearly the reflection of some insane left wing conspiracy, and that the true meanings of all such terms exists in an inherently pure, self defined, form synthesized via magic founder sprits by Blitz, and his associate, also self defined, paleo conservatives. What you have here is an outright assault on reason itself, that replaces complex reality with a short 4 frame comic strip featuring any opposition as the forces of demon darkness. This is what we used to call "just plain nuts".

 

[MikeE]

Gun control is an issue favored by the political/economic elites. That's not to say that alot of middle class liberals don't adopt it as their cause, along with many folks who live in high crime neighborhoods and have attended too many funerals for 14-year old shooters.

However,the modern gun control system comes out of the 1968 gun control act. This is what established FFL's, and control of interstate commerce in firearms. This act was passed in reaction to the urban rebellions that raged across the nation in 1968 after the assassination of Martin Luther King. Young African Americans responded to the murder of the non-violent leader Dr King by launching mass rebellions. The Feds, under Democrat Lyndon Johnson, passed gun control legislation which the press at the time dubbed 'the H Rap Brown Act', after the young black nationalist leader H Rap Brown. Whatever you think of the urban riots of the late 60's, they were manifestations of the left, and gun control was aimed at the left by elites in both Parties. For example: Out of this atmosphere, the Black Panther Party for Self Defense emerged, openly leftist, and asserting their right to the 2nd Amendment . Massad Ayoob has documented how the very early history of gun control was targeted at disarming African Americans living under segregation. The Panthers, particularly Huey P Newton, were well aware of this history. They protested attempts by the state of California, under that Saint Ronald Reagan, to enact stricter gun laws. The Panthers showed up at the State Assembly carrying unloaded shotguns. This probably was the act that signed their death warrant in the eyes of Reagan's administration (they used to call him Mickey Mouse Reagan and his Attorney General Donald Duck Rafferty).

Today, the people who most support gun control are the elite, moderate wing of the Democratic Party. Often, they are big city Mayors, supported by Senators from urban states. Why? In the wake of the social deterioration that is happening in poor neighborhoods, crime tends to increase, and get more violent.This is often in communities that have been outsourced, de-industrialized, and free-traded into mass unemployment. Rather than starting a discussion about improving schools, creating public works employment, mass transit, day care, or anything else that would benefit working people, the pols talk that gun control talk. It costs nothing, doesn't threaten to tax Mayor Bloomberg's Wall Street friends, or bother gentrifying Mayors like Daley, or pro business Senators like Schumer. So, for big business oriented Democrats, gun control is a cheap throw away. For right wing politicians, it's a great fund raising issue, just like abortion. A chance to 'wave the bloody shirt'. Both Parties agree that they do not want to be forced into actually legislating on this, it's too profitable to keep the grudge match going.

 

[Sling Blade]

Getting back to the original post, I disagree with the paper saying the left has lost the gun control debate, as there are a lot of lefties that are very well armed and against gun control. That's what happens when someone paints with too broad of a brush.

That said, I do believe that the gun control debate is pretty much dead - just too many guns out there and more being sold every day. Also, anti gun people know that the NRA will raise holy **** every time an kind of anti gun legislation sees the light of day.

 

[Cougfan2]

Gun control is an issue favored by the political/economic elites. That's not to say that alot of middle class liberals don't adopt it as their cause, along with many folks who live in high crime neighborhoods and have attended too many funerals for 14-year old shooters.

However,the modern gun control system comes out of the 1968 gun control act. This is what established FFL's, and control of interstate commerce in firearms. This act was passed in reaction to the urban rebellions that raged across the nation in 1968 after the assassination of Martin Luther King. Young African Americans responded to the murder of the non-violent leader Dr King by launching mass rebellions. The Feds, under Democrat Lyndon Johnson, passed gun control legislation which the press at the time dubbed 'the H Rap Brown Act', after the young black nationalist leader H Rap Brown. Whatever you think of the urban riots of the late 60's, they were manifestations of the left, and gun control was aimed at the left by elites in both Parties. For example: Out of this atmosphere, the Black Panther Party for Self Defense emerged, openly leftist, and asserting their right to the 2nd Amendment . Massad Ayoob has documented how the very early history of gun control was targeted at disarming African Americans living under segregation. The Panthers, particularly Huey P Newton, were well aware of this history. They protested attempts by the state of California, under that Saint Ronald Reagan, to enact stricter gun laws. The Panthers showed up at the State Assembly carrying unloaded shotguns. This probably was the act that signed their death warrant in the eyes of Reagan's administration (they used to call him Mickey Mouse Reagan and his Attorney General Donald Duck Rafferty).

Today, the people who most support gun control are the elite, moderate wing of the Democratic Party. Often, they are big city Mayors, supported by Senators from urban states. Why? In the wake of the social deterioration that is happening in poor neighborhoods, crime tends to increase, and get more violent.This is often in communities that have been outsourced, de-industrialized, and free-traded into mass unemployment. Rather than starting a discussion about improving schools, creating public works employment, mass transit, day care, or anything else that would benefit working people, the pols talk that gun control talk. It costs nothing, doesn't threaten to tax Mayor Bloomberg's Wall Street friends, or bother gentrifying Mayors like Daley, or pro business Senators like Schumer. So, for big business oriented Democrats, gun control is a cheap throw away. For right wing politicians, it's a great fund raising issue, just like abortion. A chance to 'wave the bloody shirt'. Both Parties agree that they do not want to be forced into actually legislating on this, it's too profitable to keep the grudge match going.

Probably the most intelligent post I have heard on this subject.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

This order was simply written out of spite by a bully. Obama REALLY does not like his constituents and it's reflected here. His election caused one of the biggest gun buys in history with no noticeable increase in crime (with the exception of his ATF supplying guns to murderous Mexican gang members, then standing by while the media blamed it on US citizens.) Furthermore this country's been a huge sink for the worlds surplus ammo safely disposing it in the hills of deserts and ranges. I think Americans have observed those facts and have concluded the 2nd amendment is indeed reasonable. Obama did the only thing he could to stick it in the eye of Americans which was to deny the repatriation of great, historical firearms to their owners: the American people.

And, note to the tyrants amongst us, unfired, stored in basements, garages and other spots all around this land

 

[Blitzkrieg]

According to Blitz, any common, agreed to, definitions of political terms are mearly the reflection of some insane left wing conspiracy, and that the true meanings of all such terms exists in an inherently pure, self defined, form synthesized via magic founder sprits by Blitz, and his associate, also self defined, paleo conservatives. What you have here is an outright assault on reason itself, that replaces complex reality with a short 4 frame comic strip featuring any opposition as the forces of demon darkness. This is what we used to call "just plain nuts".

Ad Hominem attack is the redoubt of a lost argument

I state the fact that leftists are anti freedom (they prove it every day, whether gun/ammo bans, "hate speech" laws, control of the airways with a "fairness doctrine" or the hoax of man-made global warming, or the continuance (at government gunpoint) of the welfare state that has destroyed entire classes of people) and you, for your riposte' call me nuts lol

The truth is actually quite simple.. it is the enemies of truth who try to make intellectual taffy out of a simple matter

 

[bugeye]

Ad Hominem attack is the redoubt of a lost argument

I state the fact that leftists are anti freedom (they prove it every day, whether gun/ammo bans, "hate speech" laws, control of the airways with a "fairness doctrine" or the hoax of man-made global warming, or the continuance (at government gunpoint) of the welfare state that has destroyed entire classes of people) and you, for your riposte' call me nuts lol

The truth is actually quite simple.. it is the enemies of truth who try to make intellectual taffy out of a simple matter

So, your Ad Hominem defense applies to anything you say regardless of how absurd it is?
Nice trick though, saved you from defending your rant from the accurate critique I leveled at it!

You only see the side that makes guns freedom, and miss the sde that says, I need to be free from having to cope with so many guns in the hands of nutjobs!
The freedom of hate speech over the freedom of not having to put up with it.
The freedom for the totally irresponsible to declare climate change a hoax, dismissing any actual data and the scientific method!
Yeah, I'm sure we all understand the complexities of the climate models and can make our own decisions, vs. being the yapping proxies of yapping proxies?
The freedom to blame the 'welfare state' for all the worlds ills, ignoring thousands of other factors indicating a state of polarized blindness that you not only seem unaware of, but are actually proud of! Freedom is a state of mind before a state of ownership, if you're not even free to look all around you, to see complex forces as makers, to only reduce politics to a few short slogans, what freedom can you really touch at all?

Are these our choices, do we have minds, can we see ourselves in our ingnorance, or must we pretend that we have all the answers, and that all the worlds wisdom can be said in 5 word sets?

 

[Jamie6.5]

The freedom of hate speech over the Blah blah blah
The freedom for the totally irresponsible to declare climate change a hoax Blah blah blah
Yeah, I'm <snip>being the yapping proxies of yapping proxies?
The freedom to blame the 'welfare state' for all the worlds ills, Blah blah blah

Are these our choices, do we have minds, can we see ourselves in our ingnorance, or must we pretend that we have all the answers, and that all the worlds wisdom can be said in 5 word sets?

Translation:
Buggy IS the left. He will take your gun because he doesn't trust you with it. He's insecure, so in his mind, you're a "nutjob." How dare you think for yourself. There are perfectly good leftist media sites that will tell you all you need to know and think. Like him!

When he's done taking your gun, he'll take your income for his union buds, because he knows there won't be anything you can do about it.

When he's done taking your gun and most of your income, he'll muzzle you, removing free speech from anyone that refuses to chant the party line.

When he has your gun, your income and your ability to complain publicly, he'll stick you on a bus or train, removing your transportation and therefore your independence. All because he doesn't trust "nutjobs" with fossil fuels either.

Look around you everyone,... Buggy's pals are running the show at schools and the mass media networks. He and his pals have co-opted pop culture!
He just told you what they intend to do. He promised his buds that he'd come here and belittle you all into believing in the superiority of the leftist way.
I am certain he was being honest about it too.

Except of course the reasons for it. Those came out of the Kool-Aide packs he drinks daily.

 

[bugeye]

Translation:
Buggy IS the left. He will take your gun because he doesn't trust you with it. He's insecure, so in his mind, you're a "nutjob." How dare you think for yourself. There are perfectly good leftist media sites that will tell you all you need to know and think. Like him!

When he's done taking your gun, he'll take your income for his union buds, because he knows there won't be anything you can do about it.

When he's done taking your gun and most of your income, he'll muzzle you, removing free speech from anyone that refuses to chant the party line.

When he has your gun, your income and your ability to complain publicly, he'll stick you on a bus or train, removing your transportation and therefore your independence. All because he doesn't trust "nutjobs" with fossil fuels either.

Look around you everyone,... Buggy's pals are running the show at schools and the mass media networks. He and his pals have co-opted pop culture!
He just told you what they intend to do. He promised his buds that he'd come here and belittle you all into believing in the superiority of the leftist way.
I am certain he was being honest about it too.

Except of course the reasons for it. Those came out of the Kool-Aide packs he drinks daily.

I see, I drink cool aid because;
I realize that freedom isn't free and that some folks shouldn't have guns?
That the people who steal my dough are the people with actual money, and not the cops, firefighters and teachers?
That people actually pollute?
That most scientists are legit?
Or that I can see through Limbaugh, Beck, Savage, Coulter, and that lot using only the ability to reason I was taught in the first grade?

That makes little sense, so the gist of your argument must have something to do co-opting pop culture, sheesh!

 

[elsullo]

It's pretty clear that folks like Blitzkrieg and Jamie6.5 want to make war on the "Left", whatever THAT is---what, lurking Leninists pulling the puppet strings?--- because they fear that the "Left" wants to disarm and enslave them. So they want to disarm and enslave the "Left".

Well, sorry about this, but the "Left" is quite well-armed and prepared for civil war, because the Left supports the Second Amendment and all of the rest of our heritage of liberty in the Constitution! And we WILL NOT ALLOW ANY NEO-FASCISTS who unknowingly represent the Filthy Rich class to try to limit our freedoms! We have always known that the Fascists would try a comeback with new brainwashed legions of "Conservatives" and Rush-ites. Just like Hitler and the Nazis they try to re-define language and history to confuse people, telling bigger lies over and over until maybe somebody might believe them.

It won't work. Far too many people think for themselves, and don't suck up their daily dose of propaganda from Fox News and rightwing fringe blogs.......................elsullo

PS: did nobody notice that Russia had the hottest Summer in recorded history? Global warming a hoax? Ten-thousand year old peat bogs dried out and the Northern soil of RUSSIA CAUGHT FIRE last Summer! Go ahead Neo-Nazis, deny THAT!

 

[svxr8dr]

So disagreeing with you now equates to being a NEO NAZI? Oh hold that...according to you and your post, anyone who disagree with you is a brainwashed/uninformed NEO NAZI. Stay Classy

 

[elsullo]

You are right, my last post was low class and I regret it, but I felt dragged down to their level by their lies about me and what I know and believe. But I did not say that ANYONE who disagrees with me is anything, I only said that particular folks like the extreme right-wingers here who were repeatedly spreading falsehoods were indeed brainwashed like Neo-Nazis. Parrot enough false slogans against me and alas, eventually I do react with annoyance......................elsullo

So disagreeing with you now equates to being a NEO NAZI? Oh hold that...according to you and your post, anyone who disagree with you is a brainwashed/uninformed NEO NAZI. Stay Classy

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Simply put, I believe the founding fathers would be distraught over the current condition of our country. Anyone who wants to argue that our Republic has become overly conservative since the implimentation of the constitution has their ideology on a pedestal.
The U.S. has moved nowhere but left for generations with maybe a brief pause here and there.
'Conservative' is not defined by the GOP. There are 'Progressives' in both parties. When the government becomes as out of hand as it is, then the people become frustrated over how to correct it. What is happening now is a result of weak and irresponsible government.

As an aside, left wing threats make me giggle.

 

[CEF1959]

So disagreeing with you now equates to being a NEO NAZI? Oh hold that...according to you and your post, anyone who disagree with you is a brainwashed/uninformed NEO NAZI. Stay Classy

Could be worse, he could have just called you a "troll," which means "someone who disagrees with me and whose arguments I can't meet." At least "Neo-Nazi" suggests he knows you are serious.

 

[CEF1959]

Simply put, I believe the founding fathers would be distraught over the current condition of our country. Anyone who wants to argue that our Republic has become overly conservative since the implimentation of the constitution has their ideology on a pedestal.
The U.S. has moved nowhere but left for generations with maybe a brief pause here and there.
'Conservative' is not defined by the GOP. There are 'Progressives' in both parties. When the government becomes as out of hand as it is, then the people become frustrated over how to correct it. What is happening now is a result of weak and irresponsible government.

As an aside, left wing threats make me giggle.

Right on, brother. In the good old days, we could own slaves. Now that the lefties are in charge, we can't. And I heard yesterday that women can vote now, and old people get pensions. Crap, dude, you nailed it: It's been downhill since 1789.

Wait a minute, though. What was that about "weak" government? I thought we were supposed to be in favor of that. Or do we have to do the whole Hamilton/Jefferson debate all over again? Or are we talking Franco/Mussolini? They were definitely opposed to weak government.

It's so difficult being ideologically pure, innit?

BTW, your quote, "Left wing threats make me giggle" was first uttered by Fulgencia Batista in 1958. He stopped giggling a bit later.

 

[bugeye]

It's pretty clear that folks like Blitzkrieg and Jamie6.5 want to make war on the "Left", whatever THAT is---what, lurking Leninists pulling the puppet strings?--- because they fear that the "Left" wants to disarm and enslave them. So they want to disarm and enslave the "Left".

Well, sorry about this, but the "Left" is quite well-armed and prepared for civil war, because the Left supports the Second Amendment and all of the rest of our heritage of liberty in the Constitution! And we WILL NOT ALLOW ANY NEO-FASCISTS who unknowingly represent the Filthy Rich class to try to limit our freedoms! We have always known that the Fascists would try a comeback with new brainwashed legions of "Conservatives" and Rush-ites. Just like Hitler and the Nazis they try to re-define language and history to confuse people, telling bigger lies over and over until maybe somebody might believe them.

It won't work. Far too many people think for themselves, and don't suck up their daily dose of propaganda from Fox News and rightwing fringe blogs.......................elsullo

PS: did nobody notice that Russia had the hottest Summer in recorded history? Global warming a hoax? Ten-thousand year old peat bogs dried out and the Northern soil of RUSSIA CAUGHT FIRE last Summer! Go ahead Neo-Nazis, deny THAT!

Humm, yet somehow I feel like moving a little further away from you on the group W bench, lol.