National Larry Vickers Troubles

[Old Dog]

The bit that pisses me off if that he folded. If you are going to challenge the dragon you need to be all in. Take that sh*t to court and make them defend it. I agree that these laws have "constitutional issues", and I even advocate for pushing them to their breaking point (as with braces, bump stocks and binary triggers). But if you are going to push don't fold when it gets a little warm. That just pins you as a coward, willing to skirt the law as long as it benefits you, but willing to set horrible precedent for everyone else as soon as you are called out.

Vickers was an bubblegum, but sometimes an bubblegum is what you need. If he had been willing to stand and fight I would have rooted for him, and probably even tossed a few bucks his way for the legal fund. But he was not just an bubblegum, he was an bubblegum and a coward. That is not what we needed, and I hope he enjoys never having his 2A rights again.

Eh. LAV woke up one day and realized he was going to be doing years in a federal prison. He did what most men do; he rolled over on the rest of the guys involved and took a deal. Some would say that's simply being pragmatic, not cowardly. Especially since he was admitting that he knew the law and knowingly violated the law. Doesn't matter if we believe the regulation of Class 3/SOT weapons is unconstitutional or not.

DIfficult for me to root for people who knowingly do stupid things and then try and weasel out of being held accountable for their actions.

 

[arakboss]

This was at most civil disobedience as no violence was involved. If you are one of those who believes the 2A has limits (like Scalia), then I understand why you support the ATFs position.

I wish all constitutional Sheriff's would write letters requesting demos of machine guns, SBRs, etc from many FFLs. If you haven't noticed Machine Guns are very limited in supply and expensive. The more machine guns the merrier, IMHO.

 

[Koda]

The bit that pisses me off if that he folded. If you are going to challenge the dragon you need to be all in. Take that sh*t to court and make them defend it. I agree that these laws have "constitutional issues", and I even advocate for pushing them to their breaking point (as with braces, bump stocks and binary triggers).

I actually agree with you but Im not certain Id agree he was doing it to push the constitutional issues...
Theres a huge elephant in the closet with whats actually constitutional or he would have played that card.

 

[Old Dog]

Not quite sure why some here seem to be pushing the whole issue of constitutionality or civil disobedience.

Vickers totally understood the current laws, tried to get around them for personal monetary gain, and is now being held accountable.

Vickers was not making a stand on principle, trying to spotlight unconstitutional firearms regulations nor fighting an important Second Amendment battle.

He was trying to enrich himself, nothing more.

His case has nothing to do with whether or not any of us agree with the current laws and regulations, as I'm gonna go out on a limb here and state none of us here are in favor of any of these pointless, stupid laws, but it's everything to do with willingly performing criminal acts for personal gain. How many of us here are willing to do 20 to 25 in a federal pen just to make a point?

 

[arakboss]

Not quite sure why some here seem to be pushing the whole issue of constitutionality or civil disobedience.

Vickers totally understood the current laws, tried to get around them for personal monetary gain, and is now being held accountable.

Vickers was not making a stand on principle, trying to spotlight unconstitutional firearms regulations nor fighting an important Second Amendment battle.

He was trying to enrich himself, nothing more.

It doesn't matter why he was doing it. The 2A didn't require some high level of morality or principles to participate. "Shall not be infringed" is absolute in my opinion. I realize many of you guys don't agree, which is partly why we have so many restrictions.

 

[Old Dog]

It doesn't matter why he was doing it. The 2A didn't require some high level of morality or principles to participate. "Shall not be infringed" is absolute in my opinion. I realize many of you guys don't agree, which is partly why we have so many restrictions.

If "shall not be infringed" is absolute, we have a problem as our government -- presumably elected by the majority of citizens that actually vote -- does not seem to be in agreement.

I fight the restrictions within the system, not by defying it. So far. Now, there may come the day...

 

[arakboss]

If "shall not be infringed" is absolute, we have a problem as our government -- presumably elected by the majority of citizens that actually vote -- does not seem to be in agreement.

I fight the restrictions within the system, not by defying it. So far. Now, there may come the day...

We do have a problem as only a tiny percentage of populace believes the 2A is absolute.



"Now, there may come the day..."


That day will never come. We are so conditioned to accept and comply with whatever restriction comes down the pike because it's the law. That is made clear here on the daily.

 

[Old Dog]

We do have a problem as only a tiny percentage of populace believes the 2A is absolute.



"Now, there may come the day..."


That day will never come. We are so conditioned to accept and comply with whatever restriction comes down the pike because it's the law. That is made clear here on the daily.

Those of us in the "gun culture" would like to believe that all citizens with common sense will accept the 2A on face value. But those of us that live in Washington state (and Oregon) know that we -- gun owners, shooters, hunters, gun collectors -- are actually in the minority.

So what do you suggest then? And who is this "we" (who are so conditioned to accept and comply, etc., etc...) you refer to? Simply because most of us do not overtly violate the ridiculous firearms laws does not mean that we are conditioned to accept and comply with them -- there are many ways to fight against these tyrannical laws, but as armed insurrection is currently a non-starter, we are kind of forced to play the long game.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Those of us in the "gun culture" would like to believe that all citizens with common sense will accept the 2A on face value. But those of us that live in Washington state (and Oregon) know that we -- gun owners, shooters, hunters, gun collectors -- are actually in the minority.

So what do you suggest then? And who is this "we" (who are so conditioned to accept and comply, etc., etc...) you refer to? Simply because most of us do not overtly violate the ridiculous firearms laws does not mean that we are conditioned to accept and comply with them -- there are many ways to fight against these tyrannical laws, but as armed insurrection is currently a non-starter, we are kind of forced to play the long game.

Since this particular election year is going to be a bit more critical, we would be wise to point out the serious failures of the folks who have been steering the ship. Plenty of voters who don't care about 2A issues are sick of the general state of things outside of our favorite issues. Find things you can agree on with middle of the road, or even moderate lefties. Then point out that 1 party in this state has had free reign for years now. Probably not changing many ballots , but maybe leave them unable to look at themselves in the mirror as things slide deeper into the abyss.

 

[arakboss]

Those of us in the "gun culture" would like to believe that all citizens with common sense will accept the 2A on face value. But those of us that live in Washington state (and Oregon) know that we -- gun owners, shooters, hunters, gun collectors -- are actually in the minority.

So what do you suggest then? And who is this "we" (who are so conditioned to accept and comply, etc., etc...) you refer to? Simply because most of us do not overtly violate the ridiculous firearms laws does not mean that we are conditioned to accept and comply with them -- there are many ways to fight against these tyrannical laws, but as armed insurrection is currently a non-starter, we are kind of forced to play the long game.

So what do you suggest then?

For starters, quit over-complying and restricting beyond what the laws call for.

Covert civil disobedience does little except make you feel good in your own mind and basement. Support those who get caught in acts of 2A related civil disobedience, instead of dissing on them.

If you don't already, believe that the 2A is absolute. If you believe otherwise then you will be little different than the gungrabbers, only separated by the degrees of restrictions you and they support.

 

[FATAL125]

First and foremost, I'm not trying to start a pissing contest or wind up a conspiracy theory rant. So let that be noted.

I see this often here and therefore often wonder about the age demographic that speaks it. Many times on many threads members talk about how important voting is and that the voters are what are putting us in these situations. Specifically 2A related and "elected" officials related. How many here actually think that our votes have meant d!ck in the last few decades.

The supreme beings saw a huge lapse of people paying attention with the boomer generation. Most of them wanted their cake and eat it too. They didn't want to be bothered with serious decision making and so they put far too much power into the hands of the elected. They figured "this is America... we're untouchable" and to some degree they were correct cause now they're dying off as the poopoo is really hitting the fan. This mindset didn't go unnoticed by the powers that be though.

Every generation since has been more and more wrapped up in their own tiny corner of the world. We continue to allow the degradation of what this country was built on by ignorantly thinking we can "overcome" by voting and being good little boys and girls.

Personal opinion is we're approaching the point of no return quickly. Vickers is an idiot and a selfish one at that. However, the idea and implementation of mass non-compliance is quickly becoming our best and possibly only option. We're not gonna win with compliance and voting at this point. We need to put the fear of the people back into the souls of our so called leadership.

Unfortunately, I don't know how we ever get the majority to understand this, and more importantly, actually start working together to do something significant about it.

 

[Diamondback]

There are certain exceptions for museums and educational institutions. LAV's mistake was not chartering the "Larry Vickers Institute of Firearms History & Technology" as such an institution.

 

[Camelfilter]

...How many here actually think that our votes have meant d!ck in the last few decades...

Our vote would matter, if folks Vote. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Oregon has ~3Million voters.

~969,000 folks voted for measure 114.

~942,000 folks voted against measure 114.

Which totals roughly 1.9 million voters.

If of the remaining abstaining approximately 1.1 million voters the pro 2A voter block had "bothered" to vote, measure 114 wouldn't have come close to passing.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Something to consider here.....

The law is the law....
As in it states what is legal / allowed and what is not legal / allowed.
It does not care if it is unconstitutional or if someone agrees with it / likes it or whatever else.

You obey the law or not...
Either action will have consequences.

Arguing over whether or not the laws that were broken here , are constitutional or not...does not matter.*
It don't matter ...'cause it is the law...and it was broken.

Work to overturn those laws....vote against those who are in favor of them.

Now....
I don't care for firearm laws , rules , restrictions , bans and the like.
I vote against them when I can....I vote against those who wish to impose them upon us.
I have signed petitions to overturn laws , bans and regulations....
Again...all because I don't care for them , nor do I think that they do any damn thing to make us safe.

However...
If I choose to disobey them....then I should also accept the consequences of doing so.

I also will not comment on Larry Vickers or his actions...
I did not do them...Nor do I really know anything about him ...so I will not pass judgement on him.
Andy
* Doesn't matter in the context of the OP...
However if you are arguing over whether a law , should be in place / or exist in the first place , then it does matter.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Our vote would matter, if folks Vote. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Oregon has ~3Million voters.

~969,000 folks voted for measure 114.

~942,000 folks voted against measure 114.

Which totals roughly 1.9 million voters.

If of the remaining abstaining approximately 1.1 million voters the pro 2A voter block had "bothered" to vote, measure 114 wouldn't have come close to passing.

It's not just getting people to vote. They need to hold their elected representatives accountable when things start falling apart. Yelling at the TV when local news is on doesn't seem to be making a difference.

 

[Alexx1401]

Eh. LAV woke up one day and realized he was going to be doing years in a federal prison. He did what most men do; he rolled over on the rest of the guys involved and took a deal. Some would say that's simply being pragmatic, not cowardly. Especially since he was admitting that he knew the law and knowingly violated the law. Doesn't matter if we believe the regulation of Class 3/SOT weapons is unconstitutional or not.

DIfficult for me to root for people who knowingly do stupid things and then try and weasel out of being held accountable for their actions.

This is how I saw this entire mess. Again we "may" be getting a bunch of bunk from the "news" but, if this is how it shook out? Sure looked to me like he really was just stupid enough to think he was going to get away with this. Then when it was clear he was not he of course took the best deal he could get a lawyer to find for him. The old poke the bear, bear bites, then cry that the bear was not fair. Do I like or agree with almost any "gun law"? F**K NO! Do I try to stay on the correct side of the legal line? Yes. Do I vote to try to not only keep the rights I have and maybe dial some of this back? F**K YES, at EVERY damn election.

 

[Alexx1401]

It's not just getting people to vote. They need to hold their elected representatives accountable when things start falling apart. Yelling at the TV when local news is on doesn't seem to be making a difference.

Sadly there is only one way out of this. VOTE. The only thing law makers fear is losing that job. It would not take a clean sweep. If even a few started to lose? The rest would not change how they think but they sure as hell would act like they did to keep that job.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Sadly there is only one way out of this. VOTE. The only thing law makers fear is losing that job. It would not take a clean sweep. If even a few started to lose? The rest would not change how they think but they sure as hell would act like they did to keep that job.

Yes , I am constantly harping on my co workers to vote. It's just that they also need to be willing to chastise the current public employees holding office.

 

[FATAL125]

Our vote would matter, if folks Vote. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Oregon has ~3Million voters.

~969,000 folks voted for measure 114.

~942,000 folks voted against measure 114.

Which totals roughly 1.9 million voters.

If of the remaining abstaining approximately 1.1 million voters the pro 2A voter block had "bothered" to vote, measure 114 wouldn't have come close to passing.

My point is thats a conspicuously close margin. Especially considering how many didn't vote. I have a hard time just taking posted voting numbers at face value. Especially when the info comes from people who have made lying a science.

View: https://youtu.be/iaQA3PYYLCE?si=Bp47v_cuuz3tuQBI

 

[Alexx1401]

My point is thats a conspicuously close margin. Especially considering how many didn't vote. I have a hard time just taking posted voting numbers at face value. Especially when the info comes from people who have made lying a science.

View: https://youtu.be/iaQA3PYYLCE?si=Bp47v_cuuz3tuQBI

There is cheating. There has always been cheating. This is one of the big excuses many use to not only not vote themselves but to tell anyone who will listen to them to not vote. Facts are still facts. WA I1639 is a glaring example of what is really wrong. Many just don't want to see it because they want the excuse instead of the truth.