"Knock down power..."

[CHLChris]

Well, a .45 was pretty good knockdown power depending...if you carry a full size 1911 and it happens to be empty, i don't see someone not going down when you throw it at their head

That counts, right?

I guess your SA Lightweight doesn't have much knockdown power, huh? Definitely one reason to get a S&W 629 with an 8" barrel.

"And stay down!"

 

[Celtic Armory]

I get so tired of Larry Potterfield of MidwayUSA saying knock down power in the gun review videos. Knock down power does not exist, for the simple reason of Newton's Third Law. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. For a round to have enough energy and mass to actually knock someone down, it would also knock down the shooter. The proper term is Stopping Power. This is a better phrase because it allows for shot placement. A round has X stopping power by it's ability to cause sufficient damage to stop someone in their tracks with one well placed shot. Of course shot placement is the most important factor, not caliber or bullet shape. A .50 BMG round to the hand or leg would be more survivable than a .32 ACP shot to the bridge of the nose from straight on.

I actually have a very good DVD with a couple low budget videos on it called "Deadly Weapons/Deadly Effects". They have loads of great facts from forensic pathologists and crime scene investigators.

 

[Celtic Armory]

Why do we always get into stupid arguements over symantecs? If you know what the person is trying to say then the message is conveyed, communication. I deal with people who speak in ebonics all the time, if I sat there and tried to correct their english constantly nothing would get done. It's a phrase that conveys a meaning, take it for what it is and move along.

Same goes for everyone who hates "jump" or "kick" over recoil. Just let it go.

I have a signature, (not here because I don't have that level of access) but on most forums it is this "Guard well the words you use, for they can be the keys to your freedom or the manacles of your slavery." When using words to describe something, it's best to use the proper words.

For example, the term "Lock up" in reference to a revolver describes the condition of the cylinder being closed with the hammer cocked. The system which holds the cylinder in place is called a "Cylinder Lock." Yet I had a major argument with someone who insisted on calling the system by the condition name. But rather than demonstrate that he could learn and use proper terminology, he chose to argue and say it was the same thing. He was unable to admit he was wrong and ended up yelling at me and insulting me. As such is no longer on my "friends" list.

Kick means the same thing as recoil and jump is related to recoil because it describes a condition of the firearm. So does muzzle flip. However knock down means just that, to knock something down. And stopping power means just that, the ability to stop. For a round to even come close to knocking someone down it would first have to have a very large mass and second it would have to expend all of its energy in the target person.

Our Founding Fathers used very specific words in the DoI, BoR and Constitution because they didn't want their meaning misconstrued. We should all strive to that level of speech.

I'm not trying to argue, just stating some simple facts of life.
Peace

 

[huntpotter]

My .22 has "knock down power", when I shoot squirrels. It knocks them down from the trees.

My .45 has "knock down power", when I shoot cans. It knocks them down off the fence post.

Seems like a perfectly valid term, as long as you describe what you are trying to knock down.

What about the term "pole axed", I shot a deer with a 12ga slug, and it pole axed him. The deer just crumpled straight down, and was dead right there. I don't even know what a pole axe is, but I think it sounds like something grandpa would say.

 

[Spitpatch]

Huntpotter made the very best case for all applications. In some cases, "knockdown power" can be deemed appropriate.

Another poster brought forth the advanced concept of "semantics" but neglected the spelling of such (and "arguments"), and went forth to say we should all let it go. I am not a spelling nazi, but if a concept such as semantics is presented in a forum such as this, it should at least receive a proper delivery. Semantics are highly important in this post. (Semantics: What words specifically and technically mean.)

However, we do NOT let it all go. Here's mine: has nothing to do with guns.

SPORT UTILITY VEHICLE: Watch for it. See how the press applies it in descriptions of collisions, hit and runs, and other events where the actual description of the vehicle has no bearing on the story. The vehicle has already been secured, the driver already stopped and did what he was supposed to to do, etc, etc, etc,. It IS appropriate to describe an SUV if it is being looked for, as part of the vehicle description. In the narrative of an event of a vehicle NOT AT LARGE, it would be the equivalent of saying " a four-door sedan", or a "two-door hatchback". (You never see these references).

I would tend to believe these "catch phrase references", or "buzz words" are in active demonization of these vehicles (as opposed to a benevolent two-door compact) for political purposes.

 

[elsie]

Chinese proverb: "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names"

On the other hand, communication is the ability for others to understand your meaning. Unfortunately, it means that language drifts over time and causes consternation to many. I usually just end up growling and/or telling them the original or intended meaning and move on. When I feel particularly cantankerous, I just expand their statement back to them in the way it was communicated to me, repeatedly, until they use the right words.


elsie

 

[tac]

Over here in UK they talk about 'bullet heads' or just 'heads'.

Just about drives me bats.

In the press they talk about 'firing rounds of ammunition' as though a round was more than one shot....

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration fund

 

[CHLChris]

As far as physics of a shotgun blast goes: The force is not equal on both ends. First, the force on the end of the shooter is focused to one point called the recoil pad. Second, any energy sent backward toward the shooter is subtracted from the total force, leaving the force hitting the shootee less by a small amount than the force experienced by the shooter.

Lastly, the 9 pellets are spread out over more area when they hit the target, lessening the felt force. Plus, since the pellets enter the body, the pellets are slowed down during their flight, leading to even less "knock-down" force being exerted on that body.

A shotgun blast doesn't "knock down" the shootee. THey may fall down because of the psychology of being struck, but not becasue of the force of the blast.

 

[chemist]

As far as physics of a shotgun blast goes: The force is not equal on both ends. First, the force on the end of the shooter is focused to one point called the recoil pad. Second, any energy sent backward toward the shooter is subtracted from the total force, leaving the force hitting the shootee less by a small amount than the force experienced by the shooter.

Lastly, the 9 pellets are spread out over more area when they hit the target, lessening the felt force. Plus, since the pellets enter the body, the pellets are slowed down during their flight, leading to even less "knock-down" force being exerted on that body.

A shotgun blast doesn't "knock down" the shootee. THey may fall down because of the psychology of being struck, but not becasue of the force of the blast.

The momentum is the same on both ends; the energy is not.

Energy is the inner product of force dotted into displacement, i.e. the change in kinetic energy equals F•d.

Let's not mix up state variables like energy with non-conserved quantities like force.

 

[Phillyfan]

The point I was trying to make is that if you know what the person means, even though they are using a term that you wouldn't, what harm is done? When comparing a .44 magnum to a .45acp and someone brings up the term knock down power, do you know what he is talking about? All I am saying is don't discount what a person is saying just because they are using different terminology. Many times what a person is saying is more important than the words they choose.

 

[chemist]

Well, that's the nut of the issue, isn't it? Language is consensus-driven, and there are specific and explicit meanings for words that have meaning, like energy, power, force, and momentum. Terms like "knockdown" are subjective, so by definition we won't have the same understanding of their meaning. That's why we can go round and round forever and get nowhere when we insist on using terms that have no specific meaning.

 

[Fister35]

I hate this phrase. Who's with me? Also, what phrase or terms that people use bug you?

I dont like the term "knock down power" either. I also dont like:
Assault rifle
Free Speech Zone
Gun Violence
2nd Amendment Rights
Hate Crime
Social Justice

and what bugs me the most is any ethnic hyphenation applied before the American identification.

 

[Spray-n-pray]

I just don't think we should let the use of these terms be a dividing issue between us. Let's all just put another clip in our gats and keep on strapping!

 

[Ballistic]

I don't like "assault weapon." I always refer to these types of guns as "military style rifles." I'm retired from the military and i never once heard "assault weapon" used when i was in the service.

I really hate "commie guns" usually including "cheap" or "crappy" in the description. As if the Russians, East Europeans, and Chinese never made a good weapon.

I don't like cute abbreviations for geographic locations. Izzy (Izhevsk), Bulgy (Bulgaria), Romy (Romanian), et cetera. I think most people would be annoyed if Ammy was used for American.

Another pet peeve is the common spelling error "muzzle break" instead of "muzzle brake." I don't correct people's spelling because i find that obnoxious, but it really annoys me. I can't tell you the number of times i've seen "a shinny bore" on Gunbroker.

 

[orygun]

what I do HATE is the word 'shotty' for shotgun .where the blazes did that horrible word come from?

I detest that word. Sounds like it's your little chihuahua or kitty that you've put a fuzzy pink sweater on and carry in a purse.

"Assault Rifle" always seems to bug me.

Don't mind the word "clip" being used instead of magazine, nor am I offended by the term wheelgun.

But God I hate "shotty".

 

[zeezee]

Sure there is such a thing as knock down power, heck try a 600 nitro express or a 4 gauge, both have knock down power. (at both ends!!)

 

[Celtic Armory]

I dont like the term "knock down power" either. I also dont like:
Assault rifle
Free Speech Zone
Gun Violence
2nd Amendment Rights
Hate Crime
Social Justice

and what bugs me the most is any ethnic hyphenation applied before the American identification.

+1000
Amen!

 

[Celtic Armory]

For any round to have any amount of "knock down power" you must consider a few factors:

1. Mass of object being shot.
2. Density of the object being shot
3. Mass of projectile
4. Density of the projectile
5. Velocity of the projectile
6. Depth of penetration of the projectile (or how much of the projectile's energy is transmitted to the target)

If we eliminate factor 6 and say 100% of the energy of the projectile is transferred, then for a round to have "knock down power" it's mass x energy must be greater than the mass of the target. But since most rounds tend to pass through a human body, not nearly 100% of the energy is transmitted and since any projectile short of a cannon or mortar has a much smaller mass than the human body, coupled with the huge disparity of density means you can't get a true knock down.

The most important factor in the ability of any round is the size of the actual damage path it makes. The larger the actual damage path, the greater the ability to drop a person with one well placed shot. Cavitation path is about the same for all pistol rounds and about the same for all combat rifle rounds, so you need to look at what the round does when it hits the body and how big of a physical damage path it can create.

That's why I carry a .45 ACP with Hydrashok or Ranger Talon rounds. They have been proven to get great expansion.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Our Founding Fathers used very specific words in the DoI, BoR and Constitution because they didn't want their meaning misconstrued.

Yet so many people in positions of power misconstrue what "well regulated", "militia" and "infringed" means.

I hate the term "shotty" as well. Any time I see it in a forum I imagine the poster is about 12 years old. It ranks up there with "deagle".

 

[TAT2D]

What about the term "pole axed", I shot a deer with a 12ga slug, and it pole axed him.

A pollaxe is a specific type of weapon, an axe head on the end of a long shaft, suitable for knocking your opponent on their 'poll.' (Their head.)

Energy is the inner product of force dotted into displacement, i.e. the change in kinetic energy equals F•d.

Physics humor: The 4th derivative of position (WRT time) is 'jounce' or 'snap.' There are no well-accepted names for the derivatives of jounce, tho' some people use 'crackle' and 'pop,' to continue the 'snap' sequence. The third derivative is 'jerk.'

Most people can barely relate to acceleration and are clueless to its derivatives, tho' I gather roller-coaster designers live and breath the stuff. And tying it back to firearms, I suppose if one wanted to describe recoil objectively, things like the rate-of-change of the acceleration would come into play.

MrB